I have the opportunity to buy a couple of bottles of 1960 Noval. If these are Noval Nacional then the price is very good but if it is the regular bottling then the price is extremely unattractive.
I will see the bottles tomorrow, but I know that do not have labels.
So my questions are intended to help me identify whether these bottles are Nacional or not and I would appreciate any answers or other ideas that might help me to identify which wine these bottles are.
1) Was Nacional shipped in bulk and bottled outside Portugal for the 1960 vintage?
2) If the wines have IVP labels attached, can the serial numbers be used to identify the wine in the bottles?
3) For Oporto bottled 1960 Nacional, did Noval either brand the cork or stamp the wax seal with the Nacional name?
4) Does anyone have an approximate idea of what the rough retail price for Noval Nacional 1960 would have been in 1999 in the UK?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Alex
Some Questions on Nacional
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
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Marc J.
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Alex,
I have a bottle on Noval Nacional 1960 and as I believe all 1960 Nacional were bottled in VNG. I don't believe that the serial number can be used to determine the contents of the bottle. The IVDP might have listing of serial numbers & what they correspond to, but I'd doubt it. As far as the retail price goes, I really couldn't tell you what the it might of been in 1999. I hope this helps!
Marc
I have a bottle on Noval Nacional 1960 and as I believe all 1960 Nacional were bottled in VNG. I don't believe that the serial number can be used to determine the contents of the bottle. The IVDP might have listing of serial numbers & what they correspond to, but I'd doubt it. As far as the retail price goes, I really couldn't tell you what the it might of been in 1999. I hope this helps!
Marc
Last edited by Marc J. on Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marc J.
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Alex,
Alright I've done a through examination of the bottle and I really can't see anything that might distinguish it as being a Nacional. The wax capsule is slightly chipped on top so I can't tell if there was a distinctive mark that might identify it. The bottle is very dark and even with a strong flaslight I can't see through to the cork. All in all, there really aren't any distingusing features that would indicate that this was a Nacional (apart from the label). If it helps, the serial number is CT058565.
Marc
Alright I've done a through examination of the bottle and I really can't see anything that might distinguish it as being a Nacional. The wax capsule is slightly chipped on top so I can't tell if there was a distinctive mark that might identify it. The bottle is very dark and even with a strong flaslight I can't see through to the cork. All in all, there really aren't any distingusing features that would indicate that this was a Nacional (apart from the label). If it helps, the serial number is CT058565.
Marc
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Frederick Blais
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Fred,
The seller doesn't know and has said as much. All the information that he has is that he paid around £200 for the bottles in 1999. He is not saying that these are Nacional, its only the price that makes me think that they are.
I will look at them later today, but I am not prepared to risk £200 of my money unless I can be absolutely certain that I am buying Nacional.
Alex
The seller doesn't know and has said as much. All the information that he has is that he paid around £200 for the bottles in 1999. He is not saying that these are Nacional, its only the price that makes me think that they are.
I will look at them later today, but I am not prepared to risk £200 of my money unless I can be absolutely certain that I am buying Nacional.
Alex
1) Was Nacional shipped in bulk and bottled outside Portugal for the 1960 vintage?
NO
2) If the wines have IVP labels attached, can the serial numbers be used to identify the wine in the bottles?
YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY WAY TO GET THIS DONE.
3) For Oporto bottled 1960 Nacional, did Noval either brand the cork or stamp the wax seal with the Nacional name?
THE CORK WILL BE BRANDED NACIONAL
4) Does anyone have an approximate idea of what the rough retail price for Noval Nacional 1960 would have been in 1999 in the UK?
ALEX,
I AM SORRY, THE FURTHEST BACK I CAN CHECK IN THE UK WAS PRICE LISTINGS FROM 2002. BERRY BROTHERS AND RUDD WAS AT £221.28 WHILE FINE & RARE WAS PRICED AT £210. THAT IS THE BEST I CAN DO. I HOPE THIS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION CAN ADD SOME PIECES TO THE PUZZLE. ROY
NO
2) If the wines have IVP labels attached, can the serial numbers be used to identify the wine in the bottles?
YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY WAY TO GET THIS DONE.
3) For Oporto bottled 1960 Nacional, did Noval either brand the cork or stamp the wax seal with the Nacional name?
THE CORK WILL BE BRANDED NACIONAL
4) Does anyone have an approximate idea of what the rough retail price for Noval Nacional 1960 would have been in 1999 in the UK?
ALEX,
I AM SORRY, THE FURTHEST BACK I CAN CHECK IN THE UK WAS PRICE LISTINGS FROM 2002. BERRY BROTHERS AND RUDD WAS AT £221.28 WHILE FINE & RARE WAS PRICED AT £210. THAT IS THE BEST I CAN DO. I HOPE THIS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION CAN ADD SOME PIECES TO THE PUZZLE. ROY
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Derek T.
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Alex,
Just to make you life more difficult I checked my cellar and found that the bottles of Noval 1963 and Noval Nacional 1963 that I have are in identical bottles. Both have a code stamped on the base with identical reference numbers. These are the closest vintage I have of both Noval offerings to your 1960 dilema. Not sure if the 1960 Noval and NN would have followed the same pattern as my 63's.
Perhaps the only way to resolve this is to open one and find out. Would the seller consider selling them as NN but giving you a refund if they turn out to be the regular bottling?
Derek
Just to make you life more difficult I checked my cellar and found that the bottles of Noval 1963 and Noval Nacional 1963 that I have are in identical bottles. Both have a code stamped on the base with identical reference numbers. These are the closest vintage I have of both Noval offerings to your 1960 dilema. Not sure if the 1960 Noval and NN would have followed the same pattern as my 63's.
Perhaps the only way to resolve this is to open one and find out. Would the seller consider selling them as NN but giving you a refund if they turn out to be the regular bottling?
Derek
Thanks for the help everyone. I went to see the bottles today and I am convinced that they are NOT Nacional. Roy's note was very helpful in this respect.
Disappointing, but at least I keep my budget for another day.
I believe that the bottles were UK bottled as neither bottle had an IDVP label. Neither did either bottle have a shipper labels. The bottles were identical but one had a neck tag reading "Quinta do Noval Nacional 1960" and the other a neck tag reading "Quinta do Noval 1960". Both bottles had a deep punt with a serial number (B83) stamped into the glass on the inside of the punt. The wax seal was was not branded but the seal on one bottle had been chipped away from the neck of the bottle and you could see the cork branding, which read "NOVAL" and on the other side of the cork read "SILVAL Quinta do Noval 1960".
Shame, but as a consolation I have been offered these bottles in a couple of weeks time at a good price for the regular bottling.
Alex
Disappointing, but at least I keep my budget for another day.
I believe that the bottles were UK bottled as neither bottle had an IDVP label. Neither did either bottle have a shipper labels. The bottles were identical but one had a neck tag reading "Quinta do Noval Nacional 1960" and the other a neck tag reading "Quinta do Noval 1960". Both bottles had a deep punt with a serial number (B83) stamped into the glass on the inside of the punt. The wax seal was was not branded but the seal on one bottle had been chipped away from the neck of the bottle and you could see the cork branding, which read "NOVAL" and on the other side of the cork read "SILVAL Quinta do Noval 1960".
Shame, but as a consolation I have been offered these bottles in a couple of weeks time at a good price for the regular bottling.
Alex
Wow that is a bizarre twist. A "Noval Silval" cork in a 1960 bottling. Now that is confuses me, so now I'll have to check for you.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Marc J.
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Here's an interesting note - since the topic of serial numbers on bottles and the corresponding significance of these numbers has come up in a number of threads I've done a bit a research to find out EXACTLY what was the significance of these numbers. I started a dialogue with the President of the IVDP and what I've found is that if the IVDP is given the serial number from the paper seal they can then provide information as to the shipper & style/brand of port contained in the bottle. If the bottle is from the '60s or earlier then the IVDP will only be able to provide the shippers name and the date that the IVDP gave that shipper that particular serial number.
Marc
Marc
Marc,
This is the first time I have ever heard mention of being able to do this, but it is logically something that I would have expected to be possible. It doesn't help me with the situation that I find myself in, but it is an extremely useful piece of information for the future.
Do you have any idea how or who I would contact to be able to trace old serial numbers in this way?
Thanks,
Alex
This is the first time I have ever heard mention of being able to do this, but it is logically something that I would have expected to be possible. It doesn't help me with the situation that I find myself in, but it is an extremely useful piece of information for the future.
Do you have any idea how or who I would contact to be able to trace old serial numbers in this way?
Thanks,
Alex