Effect of pour size on the tasting experience?

[Tom D.]

Some of the very interesting recent posts on the Seattle offline have gotten me thinking:

I'm wondering if you guys who have attended many Port and Madeira tastings have acquired special skills in dealing with the small pour sizes sometimes necessitated by large gatherings.

I always find it difficult, when at a large tasting (usually non-fortified wines up until recently), to get a full impression of a wine when the pour sizes are too stingy. Unless the environment is very controlled, it can be difficult to get a good sense of color (quality and depth), nose, and development over time in glass. And a too-small taste can sometimes leave me an impression of spirit and little else.

I would think these difficulties would be even greater in the case of very old fortified wines.

Comments?

[Glenn E.]

I agree about the color - if there isn't enough Port in the glass you can't get a "typical" look at it and so your perception is distorted. I haven't noticed any taste or smell differences, but then I haven't been looking for them.

That's why we limited the recent tasting here in Seattle to 14 people. That allows for 50 ml pours (a little over half of a "normal" 3-oz Port serving) while still allowing for bottles with low fill levels. And when you're tasting through 14 Ports, 50 ml each is really plenty. I wouldn't want to go much smaller than that, if at all, because then you'd start to run into the color problem with small pours.

[Moses Botbol]

Small pours suck and I would rather have larger pour of less samples of port or wine. If they're pouring thimbles, I could care less if it's DRC or Nacional.

[Andy Velebil]

For me the biggest down side to large tastings is typically I can't revisit the bottle again later in the evening to see how it's developed or not developed. One of the things I enjoy is watching how a wine or Port can change, good or bad, over time. Also why I tend to prefer smaller gatherings, along with being able to talk more with everyone there. But that's not always possible, as I often attend larger tastings, be it offlines, trade tastings, etc.

As to a special skill... I just try to take a small taste early on, then leave enough in the glass so I can revisit it later and see if its changed or not. I've found that's the best way to get a decent overall view of how it is performing.

[Eric Menchen]

I definitely agree that a small pour can be a problem. Sometimes I can get a good idea of what something tastes like with a small sip, but often I feel I need to really get the mouth wet to sense everything, to get the whole picture. And with a really small pour, that may mean you only get one chance.

On the other hand, I've been to tastings, shows etc. (not Port, however) where they have plenty of product and insist on giving you a lot which often means pouring some out. If they have more to go back for, I often tell the server not to pour so much. "Don't worry, if I like it or need more, I'll ask for it."

[Dylan Howard]

Sometimes I can get a good idea of what something tastes like with a small sip, but often I feel I need to really get the mouth wet to sense everything,

Jancis Robinson backs this up in "How to Taste Wine". You need enough wine to cover all the areas of your tongue and to give enough of a sense of the "aroma" in the back of your throat and your nasal passages.

[Roy Hersh]

Great thread Tom, I love creative ones like this and hope lots of people join in the discussion. For now, I'll just

[Moses Botbol]

Tasting a wine and getting to know a wine are different. One can "taste" a wine from any size pour, but getting to know the wine involves a regular glass with at least two regular pours spread out over some time as one would normally drink wine.

Wine can change dramatically over time and the experience does too. To have a true summary “review” of a wine, all stages must be appreciated.

[Alan Gardner]

Assuming that an individual has a limited tolerance for enjoying alcohol at a single sitting (as I do) then the portion size is a trade-off between quantity one wishes to consume and the diversity of wines made available. Which is kind of a fancy way of saying “it depends”.

Assuming I (with friends) consume a whole bottle (the same logic applies for a half-bottle), then my experiences range from pours of about 4 oz, down to a minimum 1 1/8 oz (measured pour) – with one exception (½ oz pour of a 27 Cockburn – and I DID care about that, as it was a superb tipple brought directly from Cockburn’s cellars).

Our ‘large’ tasting group pours 22 servings/bottle with 8 different bottles. Sure I wish I could have more – but that amount allows at least 2 sips and often a third, and permits good tasting notes.

Our ‘mid-sized’ group typically is 10-12 people and tastes 6 ports – roughly double portions of fewer wines – and those who are driving typically leave wine in several glasses.

Our ‘smaller group’ – anywhere from 6-12 people usually has 4 ports (and several table wines).

Looking back over my notes – the ‘clearest’ are those with smaller pours. Those formal tastings tend to be quieter and more studious. As the party size reduces, the conviviality (and portion size) increases and less attention seems to be paid to the wine itself.

The other factor is glass size/structure, and if the tasting portions are very small, this seems to dictate a smaller wine glass – with a larger glass the alcohol seems to become more intrusive. Because of cost/availability we tend to use a 5 oz ISO glass (which has a similar shape to the Riedel Port Glass). But over a 2-2½ oz pour we move to the generic Riedel white wine to allow for more swirling.

Obviously the above are really only for ‘tasting’ a wine – but, in my experience (so far anyway) the wines I ‘prefer’ in such tastings hold up as my favourites when consumed in larger quantities/more frequent tastings.

As for ‘knowing’ a wine, I haven’t had many (perhaps any) occasions where I’ve determined a heightened insight over several hours/days (we’re talking Port here – I specifically exempt Madeira from that statement). Most wines seem to decline once poured/opened (there have been exceptions).

Taking specific observations on the thread so far:

-“a too-small taste can sometimes leave me an impression of spirit and little else.”
I think glass/size shape can control for this.

-“if there isn't enough Port in the glass you can't get a "typical" look”
I ALWAYS check the color at the rim anyway (preferably with a white background) so I don’t see this as an issue.

-“If they're pouring thimbles, I could care less if it's DRC or Nacional.”
See my comments above on the 27 Cockburn – we then went out and bought this at auction to be able to repeat the experience with larger quantities –so that taste turned out to be VERY influential.

“often I feel I need to really get the mouth wet to sense everything, to get the whole picture.”
Around here, most liquor servings are about 1 ½ oz – and that seems to be enough for me (most/many? people) to get a ‘wet mouth’. I can certainly chew/swirl in my mouth with an ounce (sometimes less).

“Wine can change dramatically over time and the experience does too”
TRUE – but how much time is ‘optimal’ with the same bottle. And we could potentially debate whether it truly IS the same wine after significant oxidation occurs.

Having said all that, I usually favour a 3 oz pour but happily sacrifice quantity for diversity.