Do restaurants go far enough?

[Roy Hersh]

There are some restaurants that have trained Sommeliers, some even with Master Sommeliers ... while others are far more casual eateries where having such a staff member would be viewed as "pretentious" if not downright silly. OTOH, to the other extreme, there are restaurants so void of wine knowledge, especially dessert wine knowledge, that it is almost embarrassing when trying to have a discussion with their server, bartender or manager.

Obviously there is a happy medium. Where do you feel that should be, as far as wine training of the staff and managers?

[Marc J.]

I think that the level of training should be reflective of the particular restaurant. For example a four or five star restaurant should have a properly trained Sommelier on staff and the rest of the food service personnel who come in contact with the public should have some sort of basic wine training. If the establishment is on the casual side then I'd expect at least one person to have an intermediate level of wine knowledge and be the go-to person for any questions that might arise. Regardless of the type of establishement, some level of wine training is essential in order to correctly pair food with wine and also to answer customer's questions regarding the characteristics of a particular bottle.

[Peter W. Meek]

It depends on the restaurant and how they present themselves. I don't expect much wine expertise at McDonalds.

If a restaurant says it is a "restaurant and wine bar" I would expect some minimal level of knowledge from every single server, and the ability (and follow-through) to summon someone who knows more if there are any questions they can't handle. Know the basics, and know when to bring someone with more detailed answers. ( I actually know a place like that.)

Unfortunately, a lot of places claim to be serious about wine but have servers who can barely tell you which wines are red and which are white. The worst is where they make things up when they don't know or push a few wines that they have been told to push.

[Andy Velebil]

I think that the level of training should be reflective of the particular restaurant. For example a four or five star restaurant should have a properly trained Sommelier on staff and the rest of the food service personnel who come in contact with the public should have some sort of basic wine training. If the establishment is on the casual side then I'd expect at least one person to have an intermediate level of wine knowledge and be the go-to person for any questions that might arise. Regardless of the type of establishement, some level of wine training is essential in order to correctly pair food with wine and also to answer customer's questions regarding the characteristics of a particular bottle.

I can't tell you how many times I've been to high end restaurants only to discover the serious lack of wine knowledge that almost all the staff has, and that includes the Som. as well. One highlight is Disneyland's private Club-33, which I'm fortunate to have friends with a membership and eat at fairly regularly. They serve Port in those little thimble glasses meant for Cordials, not for Port. This is a place known for it's highly trained bartenders, and while they make a mean mixed drink, how they can't figure out that Port doesn't belong in those glasses is beyond me. Drives me crazy, but at least now when I ask they'll put it in a small white wine glass.

You're basic chain restaurant with a high turn over of staff I wouldn't expect much knowledge, but Marc is spot on with higher end establishments.

[Peter W. Meek]

... They serve Port in those little thimble glasses meant for Cordials, not for Port. This is a place known for it's highly trained bartenders, and while they make a mean mixed drink, how they can't figure out that Port doesn't belong in those glasses is beyond me. Drives me crazy, but at least now when I ask they'll put it in a small white wine glass.

It occurs to me that some champaign flutes would make workable substitutes for a port glass. A bit tall, and the opening a bit narrow (depending on the flute), but better than a cordial glass.

[Moses Botbol]

I think that the level of training should be reflective of the particular restaurant.

I agree. Generally, I won't order a wine that I am not familiar with either by name or region.

[Roy Hersh]

Now I have tried a plethora of glasses to drink Port from ... including a Burgundy and Cognac stem ... but must admit NEVER have tried a Champagne flute.

I wish there was a wider discussion on this topic of restaurant wine service and training, but c'est la vie.

[Jeff G.]

i don't think it really bothers me anymore.

I've found that even restaurants with trained staff, someone's definition of "lush and fruity" is not my definition of lush and fruity.
Just like someone's definition of cocoa and chocolate is most likely different from what I have in mind.

So, I don't bother listening to the "experts" anymore and simply get somethign i nkow or drink ice tea.

[Peter W. Meek]

I can't shrug it off like Jeff. If I go to a restaurant that doesn't have a) a good wine list; and b) someone who know their list and knows wines, I simply don't go back!

No stick-with-my-known (I don't know enough different wines, especially non-Italian), and no iced tea (if I've gone to a restaurant that has a wine list, I generally want wine with my dinner). (If they don't have wine, they had better have Coca-Cola; I've walked out of Pepsi-places without ordering.)

I wonder how many people (like me) actually decide whether to return to a restaurant based almost solely on the availability of wine-knowledge? I wonder how many restaurants are aware that there are people like me?

[Andy Velebil]

I can't shrug it off like Jeff. If I go to a restaurant that doesn't have a) a good wine list; and b) someone who know their list and knows wines, I simply don't go back!

I agree with Peter, IF I'm looking for a restaurant of the caliber where I would get a nice wine or Port off the list. Nothing worse than a "high end" restaurant that has a shitty wine list...drives me nuts.

(If they don't have wine, they had better have Coca-Cola; I've walked out of Pepsi-places without ordering.)

You and my co-worker would get along great.

I wonder how many people (like me) actually decide whether to return to a restaurant based almost solely on the availability of wine-knowledge? I wonder how many restaurants are aware that there are people like me?

I was at a wine bar last Saturday and I can say the experience left me, well, lets just say I won't be going back there again. Is it too hard to ask for a wine bar to give some basic training to their staff?

[Moses Botbol]

Seems like most restaurants, even with a decent wine list, I am asking for an ice bucket with red wine. If they are keeping them in a "cellar" as they say, I suggest moving them away from the water heater, lol...

[Peter W. Meek]

Seems like most restaurants, even with a decent wine list, I am asking for an ice bucket with red wine. If they are keeping them in a "cellar" as they say, I suggest moving them away from the water heater, lol...

At one place I went to (and never ordered wine there again) I saw the bartender go through a door behind the bar and lift an upright bottle for me OFF THE TOP OF THE FURNACE. It had to be about 90 degrees. If it had been tea, I might have thought it was not quite hot enough, but I probably wouldn't have sent it back.

Outside of being very warm in the bottle, it didn't taste too bad once I had I dropped an icecube into the glass. Must not have been there too long.

Still....

[Moses Botbol]

Has anyone haggled down a bottle price at restaurant before? I haven't, but a friend of mine has a few times.

[Peter W. Meek]

I have.

Where I go, they often bring a bottle as a recommendation. We usually try it, but if we don't REALLY like it, they usually "suggest" a lower price than the list price.

Frankly, this puts a considerable pressure on us to think carefully about our reactions to the wine.