questions and recommendations for tawny port

randomguy · Post by **randomguy** » Thu May 11, 2006 4:44 am

Hello,

I am a wine newb. Now that that is out of the way...

Currently I am into Australian tawnies or dessert wines. However, there is one thing in common to many of them that I don't like, and that is this sour/tangy taste. Is this the "rancio" flavor people talk about? I have heard it described both as "tangy", and also as "buttery" and "nutty". Anyway, buttery and nutty are ok, but I don't really like sour. It seems to hide the other tastes that I like, e.g. the various dried fruits or dark, sugary candies (carmel, toffee, etc). The other weird thing is that sometimes this sour or acidic taste comes and goes. Sometimes it is stronger, sometimes weaker (for the same wine). I also couldn't find a positive correlation with temperature or the amount of time that the wine sits in air. Any idea what is going on?

One thing I can say is that non-tawnies like Tokay or Muscat don't have this annoying taste, even though I believe they are prepared nearly the same.

Thus I'm looking for a tawny to try next. I'm looking for a concentrated flavor and long aftertaste. Somewhat sweet, and "dark" tasting, e.g. smoky, coffee, etc. My preferred budget is <$25 per 750ml.

Here's a quick list of what I have already tried, with a brief description of how they deviate from ideal:

Whiskers Blake: a bit weak and has a bit of annoying acidity, sometimes.

Reynella Old Cave Tawny: closer to ideal, more concentrated than WB, might have a bit of "that taste I don't like", longer aftertaste.

Buller Muscat/Tokay: Pretty good except too sweet.

Broadbent 3yr Madeira: Smells pungent, tastes ok. (Is this normal for a Madeira?)

Buller Victoria Tawny/Trevor Jones Jonesy: got the "dark" part down, but weak aftertaste.

Yalumba Museum Tawny: Smells like burnt/acidic coffee grounds. If it didn't have "that taste I don't like", it would be pretty good.

Porto Pocas 10 yr tawny: Much "hotter" than the Aus wines, with a strong aftertaste that reminds me of Chinese red beans. I think it has too much alchohol taste, and also might be too "grapey". The aftertaste is ok, though. Is this typical of a Portugese port?

Porto Pocas 1982 Colheita: Taste is too weak, and then a strong aftertaste + alchohol sneaks up on you. I presonally find this too unbalanced. Is this typical of a 20+yr portugese tawny?

Based on my few data points, it seems like for Aus "ports", the older they get the more concentrated, while for Portugese, the flavor gets weaker. Is this correct?

Anyway, would these fit the bill? I'm thinking of trying them next.
Galway Pipe
Warre's Nimrod
Some other 10 yr portugese tawny that doesn't have the excessive hotness of the Porto Pocas.
Any other thing you guys suggest that might fit the bill.

Thanks

John Conwell · Post by **John Conwell** » Thu May 11, 2006 8:40 am

I've been spending most of my wine drinking time this year with Mr. Tawny and Colheita.

My favorites are the following

1989 Porto Rocha Porto Colheita - because its fairly good and at a good price

1984 Kopke Porto Colheita - because it just tastes great!

20 Year Kopke Tawny - again, because it just tastes great!

Marc J. · Post by **Marc J.** » Thu May 11, 2006 1:40 pm

You might want to try Warre's 20 year old. I've recently opened a bottle and I've been very impressed with it. This is a refined tawny that combines the nuttiness of an older tawny with the fruit that is typically found in a 10 year old.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:49 pm

Alan,

Thanks for your impressions on many of the "port" imitators.

Try the Quinta do Portal, Niepoort or Sandeman 10 year old Tawny Ports to see what you think. Thanks for joining us. It is nice to have you here at the FORUM and please make sure you have signed up for the eNewsletter on the site (which is FREE of course).

John,

It is quite clear that you are shopping for Port in WA State as the Porto Rocha is everywhere here due to the importer living in town. He also covers 2/3 of the USA with imports of Kopke as there is one other importer on the East coast. I had the '89 Colheita recently and although it was good it was still very under-developed in terms of secondary nuances. I like the Rocha '66 for current consumption.

Marc,

When you speak of the Warre's 20 year old Tawny ... do you refer to the regular bottling or the Otima 20 year old Tawny by Warre's?

Alex R · Post by **Alex R** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:04 pm

you can't go wrong with 1994 krohn colheita tawny porto @ $24.99.(bevmo)try it. 8)

randomguy · Post by **randomguy** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:34 am

Thanks for the suggestions, but why are you guys recommending colheitas?
I had kind of a bad experience with a 82 pocas colheita, which I thought had too little initial taste (despite the strong aftertaste). My more experienced wine buddy thought it was very good, but I think that is not my preference.
The other portugal 10 yr Tawny I have experience with, also by Pocas, was OK, but I think I prefer less alchohol burn, and more of that nutty, carmel taste from some of the Australian wines.

Anyway, can you guys comment more on why you gave the suggestions? The only ones I can get around here are:

Krohn 1994 Colheita (why is it so cheap?)
Niepoort 10 yr Tawny (unfortunately, the Parker factor drove up its price significantly compared to its competitors)
Sandeman 10 yr (I've only heard good things about their 20 yr)
Noval 10 yr (the only person who didn't think it was great seems to be Roy)

Sorry, the 20 yr's are out of my price range. Thanks again.

Mike Kerr · Post by **Mike Kerr** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:18 pm

Alan, if you like the nutty caramel tastes, you may want to try 20-year tawnies in addition to the 10-year. Cockburns has a nice 20-year that might float your boat.

Mike.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:49 am

For those in the USA, WineXchange in CA is offering the 20 year old Tawny by Delaforce (known for Tawny and Colheita) for $27. This is the same price that most 10 year old Tawnies sell for. Grab 'em while they last!

Alex R · Post by **Alex R** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:55 am

thanks Roy for the tip on the DELAFORCE 20yr.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:17 am

Roy and others,

The 20 yr Delaforce that Wine Exchange has is a very old bottling. They were bottled in 1997 I bought one last year and it was off. I didn't notice the bottling date until after i tried it. The last time i was at Wine Exchange, a couple weeks ago, they only had about 4-5 bottles of this left and they were all the old bottlings.

Now, in all fairness they may have gotten a fresh shipment in, but since they have not sold the old bottles for some time I find that highly unlikely.

Nothing bad about Wine Exchange, as I am a regular and very happy customer. Just wanted to let everyone know they are old bottlings of Delaforce.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 am

Ahh, i found my prior post on this

http://www.fortheloveofport.com/forum/v ... =delaforce

randomguy · Post by **randomguy** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:53 am

Hello guys,

An update:

I did get the Niepoort 10 yr Tawny, but was not really happy with it. It tasted a little bitter and "off", or weakened. My wine buddy said that it was "corked", although the guy at the wine store tried it and thought it was fine.

He refunded my money anyway, and I got the Warre's Nimrod. I liked this a little bit better, but it still had an occasional hint of bitterness. However, one day (and one day only) about two weeks in, it tasted pretty good and I finished 1/3 the bottle that night.

Next I got the 94 Krohn Colheita. Overall, I like this a fair bit. It has a dark smokey taste, while still being a little bit red and having a little fruit. It has that nice woody aftertaste that I associate with an old Portugese Tawny Port.

I also tried the Yalumba Antique Tawny and Galway Pipe. Both have a nice caramel/butterscotch taste that I really like, and the Antique Tawny feels nice and viscous. If they didn't have that "rancio" taste associated with most Australian Tawnies, I would be really happy.

Finally, I revisited my buddy's Pocas 82 Colheita. Whereas before I complained that it had too little initial taste with too much aftertaste, after a month of sitting around, some of that taste "moved forwards", you could say, and I like it more.

As an experiment, I'm willing to pay up to $40 ish or so on a 20 year Tawny. Right now, I'm looking for that caramel/butterscotch taste of the Aus Tawnies, but without the Rancio taste. Viscous would be nice, as would tastes of dried fruits, orange peel, etc.

In general, is a Colheita of the same age "better" than a dated Tawny?

Nikolaj Winther · Post by **Nikolaj Winther** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:57 am

"In general, is a Colheita of the same age "better" than a dated Tawny?"

No, not necessarily. The reason, I think, is that colheita is to aged tawny what vintage is to crusted port.

Usually you can get colheitas that are much older than the 40yo that's the oldest aged tawny (I've seen).

It's also a non-blended drink. In other words you get the essence of a given year - not some more or less standardized product (although one shouldn't badmouth aged tawny).

Off-topic, but related - why in the world doens't whiskey-producers do the same? - Date a whiskey rather than tell it's age. When it works for port-drinkers why shouldn't it work for whiskey/cognac (etc) -drinkers?

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:49 am

Nikolaj Winther wrote: colheita is to aged tawny what vintage is to crusted port.

I'm not sure this is a good analogy. Producing aged tawny is an extremley sophisticated process and, from what I have been told, is what many port shippers believe is the ultimate expression of their skills. I don't think Crusted Port is anywhere close to this and is more than likely a fairly randon blend of VP's that couldn't quite make the grade on their own.

Whilst there are some fabulous Colheita's out there I don't think they could be considered to be generally "better" than aged tawny. The shippers do not have the oportunity to create the same sort of blends that they could with aged tawny as they are limited to very small quantities of the same wine produced from a single year. I always think the colheita process seems a bit hit and miss whereas blending aged tawny's is an art in itself.

On the whisky question - you can get "Vintage" malt whisky with the year of distillation on the label - just be ready to pay for it

You should be able to find these on http://www.wine-searcher.com

Derek

randomguy · Post by **randomguy** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:12 am

update2:

I opened up a Noval 10 Yr tawny today which I had sitting around for a while. Overall, it was what I expected a 10 yr tawny to taste like. I guess I would call it "pleasant but disappointing", as I was hoping to get blown away with lots of flavor. I like the 94 Krohn Colheita better as it has a more distinctive and stronger taste.

I think my wine buddy prefers colheitas, as he thinks they can "concentrate" the good and distinctive flavors of a particular year of grapes. Anyway, he also recommended Graham's 20 Yr Tawny. I might get that next, or some other older Colheita. If I were stinking rich, I might shell out $60 for the Ferreira 20 Yr.

Kurt Wieneke · Post by **Kurt Wieneke** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:17 pm

Hi Random Guy,
Older bottle-aged vintage Colheitas can yield some lovely surprises, whereas the 20-40 yr tawnies are more formulaic, where they try to achieve a certain house style using blending. An analogy could be made to Champagne in this regard.

From what I have read, you seem to like the caramel and nuts 'profile' in a tawny port. The really refined carmelly and nutty flavors are more likely to be found in a 30 yr or 40 ry tawny! These cost a pretty penny as you already know. This may be heresy on this board to say this, but I really like a good Oloroso Cream Sherry when I'm in the mood for a sweet, carmelly, and nutty drink - and these are relatively inexpensive.

randomguy · Post by **randomguy** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:51 am

Thanks for the recommendation, Kurt. Do you have a particular sherry in mind?

Kurt Wieneke · Post by **Kurt Wieneke** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:34 pm

The best, if you can find it, is by producer Emilio Lustau. But my advice is to ask your local wine store merchant for a recommendation. An entry level cream sherry sold at most grocery stores to get your feet wet with is of course Harvey's Bristol Cream.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:34 pm

Here is a link to a 1971 PX that I had in April. For a 35 yr old vintage it was surprisingly cheap....and very very good 8)
http://www.fortheloveofport.com/forum/v ... php?t=1014

Doug Zdanivsky · Post by **Doug Zdanivsky** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:42 am

I can second the Warre's 20 Otima tawny..

Very nice...

For The Love Of Port

questions and recommendations for tawny port

questions and recommendations for tawny port

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