Drinking young port?

[Thomas McColl]

I am curious whether many people drink young VP's, and buy them with the intention of drinking them right away--as opposed to succumbing to temptation and opening one too soon.

Recently I was in a Portuguese wine store and the fellow working there was very enthusiastic about a 2003 VP (Quinto do Valle Longo) which he said everyone in Lisbon was crazy about, and which had been made to be ready to drink now. I was a bit skeptical but I bought the bottle and it is indeed very good.

So what is the deal? Are producers starting to make VP to be drunk right away as a primary objective, and if so, how will it age? Or is it merely possible to drink young port, perhaps more so now than before because quality is improving or styles are changing a bit? And if you do drink young port, is there a certain point at which they start to close up, so for instance might a 2003 be a better bet than a 2000?

Many thanks
Thomas

[Al B.]

Up until October last year, I would never open a VP at less than 10 years of age and would generally expect to open a bottle with at least 15 years of age.

However, in November I tried three different 2003 VPs. They were all good and one of them was absolutely fabulous. A complete fruit blast with so much fruit in it that the ripe tannins were completely hidden. Since then, I have bought the occasional bottle of 2003 VP for opening and drinking immediately.

I haven't stopped buying wines to lay down or stopped buying older wines for immediate drinking, but I have discovered a new phase in the life of a VP that I had not known before.

I believe (and this is only personal opinion) that through improved knowledge of the science of winemaking, today's winemakers are making wines that are technically more correct than they would have been in the past. For example, winemakers are today able to measure and understand the impact on the wine of the ripeness of grape skins, grape seeds and grape stems in a way that they were not able to before. As a result, I think that many wines are drinkable at a much younger age today than they would have been 20 years ago - the tannins are riper and smoother and so hide more easily behind the ripe fruit.

However, because of my prejudices, I did not drink young VPs 20 years ago so I just don't have the experience to say whether a 2003 that is fantastic today will develop as well and as far as a 1970 or a 1977 since I didn't drink those 2-3 years after the harvest. I don't know whether today's Fonseca 2003 will be as good in 2043 as the Fonseca 1966 is today......but I sure hope I will (just) be around to decide for myself!

Alex

[Jay Powers]

I have bought several half bottles of 2003 vintage to experiment with by drinking them young. They were quite good to my mind, although not a replacement for the mature ports...but a reasonable option when one is in the mood. If you like fruit and acid (which I do) it's quite nice. Like a sweet tart in a glass.

The downside, with the 2003 vintage at least, is that they can cost more than more mature ports, even from 83 and 85.

[Roy Hersh]

Thomas,

Here is possibly the very first TN that ever appeared in a public forum on the wine you mentioned, while it was still in cask, when I wrote this last July:

2003 Quinta Valle Longo – this SQVP was hand delivered to me from Quinta da Vista Allegre in Pinhao, Portugal. It is the only bottle currently in the USA. The property has 10 hectares planted equally to Touriga Nacional, Tinta Roriz and Touriga Franca. 2003 is the inaugural vintage from this Quinta and the winemaker Manuel Tavares also makes the Martins family’s Vista Allegre Ports. The Quinta itself was purchased in 1972 and the vines were fully replanted in 1987. The wine is 100% foot trodden in traditional granite lagares. They have been growers of grapes and sold them to Taylor, Ramos Pinto and Ferreira over the years. I never tasted the 2000 Vista Allegre VP, but it took the Silver Medal for Ports at London’s International Wine Challenge and their 2001 Vista Allegre VP won the Gold Medal at the prestigious, International Wine & Spirits Competition in London, shocking the rest of the field. Currently, their main markets are Canada, Belgium, France, Netherlands and Denmark. From what I have tasted, Quinta Valle Longo will be a household name in the USA someday. TN: Grenadine syrup, spicy licorice and cocoa aromatics prevail. Tasty, pure boysenberry flavor envelops the mouth with a generous medium-full body. The first day I thought “where are the tannins?” The second day the tannins appeared and were mostly resolved. The finish on the 2003 is tremendous and delicious. Impressive teeth staining juice with fine aging potential. Total ’03 production was 333 cases. 93 points

If you are interested in more detailed information on this producer, look back at the FTLOP newsletter #14.

___________________________________________________________

Now to respond directly to your question about drinking young Vintage Ports (VP):

For the vast majority of my 24 years of drinking VPs, I have tried to taste all of the old great ones before they disappeared (either from my cellar or the planet). For a long time, I regularly enjoyed drinking VPs that were 25-50 years old and on occasion, much older. I was known on one of the very early "on line" wine forums for teasing anybody who drank a VP that was less than 10 years old. It was all in jest, but I always would comment about "infanticide" and the bad rap the individual was giving to American's drinking their VPs so darn young.

I eventually grew out of this smug attitude and realized what was more important, was to spread the word of Port and get more people drinking it. It became a crusade for me and it no longer mattered if people wanted to drink their Vintage Ports at even a year past the release. I was happy to try young vintage Ports at trade tastings, offlines, in Portugal or an occasional bottle at a restaurant. However, I would NEVER open my young bottles unless I had organized a horizontal or vertical tasting.

My 2006 New Year's resolution, was to start opening my young Ports this year. I really wanted to update my tasting notes and gain more insightful impressions of how the 1980-1997 Vintages were progressing. The 2000 and 2003s I get to taste anyway, but more importantly were the aforementioned vintages which I had rarely and in some cases never opened from my own cellar. It was time to break into unopened cases and start to enjoy these youngsters, afterall, these were the Ports that the majority of folks are drinking these days and I wanted to be able to join in the fun and have valid, current opinions.

There is a lot that can be learned by drinking the VPs in their youth, besides the pure enjoyment of the freshness and vibrancy of the wines themselves. It has been quite a few years since I teased someone for opening up a very young Port, as I don't want to be a hypocrite. So I do my best these days to promote the enjoyment of drinking Vintage Ports at all stages of their life cycles. Like humans, there are various facets that can be seen at the many stages of development and the remarkable beauty of an infant or toddler should not be missed.

[Roy Hersh]

Alex wrote:

I believe (and this is only personal opinion) that through improved knowledge of the science of winemaking, today's winemakers are making wines that are technically more correct than they would have been in the past. For example, winemakers are today able to measure and understand the impact on the wine of the ripeness of grape skins, grape seeds and grape stems in a way that they were not able to before. As a result, I think that many wines are drinkable at a much younger age today than they would have been 20 years ago - the tannins are riper and smoother and so hide more easily behind the ripe fruit.

I don't necessarily think that today's winemakers are making Ports that are any more technically correct than the last generation or two of Port oenologists. Nor do I believe that they have a better grasp on the science of winemaking. Certainly since the 2nd half of the 20th century, any Portmaker worthy of his position as winemaker or master blender ... could measure and understand the impact of grape ripeness, manipulation of tannins and virtually any inherent facets that today's younger generation of Port winemakers have mastered.

What IS different in the past 5-20 years, is vineyard management techniques and new technologies. For example, in the VAST majority of Douro vineyards, field blends of different grape varieties was the norm. Today, there are many re-plantings (that have taken place in the past 2 decades) which have segregated the cultivars so they can be grown on specific sites selected for their particular proclivities; as well as picked at their own particular peak of ripeness. Additionally, Vinha Ao Alta plantings and the use of Patamares have forever changed the landscape of the Douro vineyards. These are just a couple of the many improvements which have come along to assist with grape growing techniques.

Of course there are new technologies employed by the winemakers and within the winery itself. Robotics for one, although a great deal of the benefit is "labor" related, whether from a cost standpoint or availability of able bodied individuals. But we've seen a major swing from foot treading in lagares that moved "forward" to Movimosto, Remontagem and Autovinification ... that has now moved "back" to foot treading in lagares in the tried and true antiquated & traditional method. I will admit that there have been more significant changes in the Douro since the late 1970s (nearly 30 years) than the entire evolution that took place in the previous three centuries. However, I don't see that THESE changes have resulted in Vintage Ports that are now easier to drink thank VPs from the 2nd half of the last century.

Weather conditions and even global warming (I don't want to get too political here) are the most important dynamics on changes noticed in Ports. If you ask today's young and talented Portmakers, they'll attest to the fact that technologies in the winery and vineyard practices have helped to make their job easier by providing greater consistency. But you only need look back as far as the 1997 harvest, to realize that it IS Mother Nature that decides if a particular vintage will be approachable early -- or massive beasts of burden with tannins astringent enough to prevent you from uttering a word after swallowing.

Of course yesterday's Port masters knew how to manipulate tannins as well as today's oenologists in Gaia and the Douro. But they have all shared a common bond and a vested interest that goes beyond profit margins and wine critic's numerical ratings. The reputations that have been built over centuries, (not decades, as in the USA wine trade) are the cornerstones of the Port trade. These reputations are based on quality and consistency, the hallmark of which, is the tradition of house style.

So to Thomas I say "thank you" for his thought provoking post and brilliant questions, which I hope will open the door for lots more ideas and discussion here:

He wrote:

So what is the deal? Are producers starting to make VP to be drunk right away as a primary objective, and if so, how will it age? Or is it merely possible to drink young port, perhaps more so now than before because quality is improving or styles are changing a bit? And if you do drink young port, is there a certain point at which they start to close up, so for instance might a 2003 be a better bet than a 2000?

There are some Vintage Ports that are specifically designed to be more approachable, meaning in 10-15 years, rather than 15-30+ years old. Tannins are tweaked and tamed, specific grape varieties are added or left out of the assemblage and other specific techniques are employed to bring Vintage Ports like Niepoort Secundum, Sandeman Vau Vintage and Quinta do Portal + (to name just three diverse examples) to the consumer with much earlier approachability. So the answer to one of your questions above is "yes" there are some producers who are making a secondary VP to add to their portfolio, for their customers to drink early on ... while their "classic" (long term aging) VPs remain in their OWC in the cellar.

The answer to your question about styles changing ... please read my strong belief above, about reputation, tradition and house style. As much as some things change in the Port industry ... house styles of the traditional producers rarely do when it comes to their signature Vintage Ports. As mentioned, there are other dynamics that come into play, the largest of which is nature itself.

There are many opinions about when Vintage Ports tend to close up, shut down or head into their dumb phase (all 3 are eupehmisms for the same thing that most ageworthy red wines go through). It is next to IMPOSSIBLE to generalize when this happens, as spedific vintage characteristics and Port Shippers' influence on the finished product make a huge difference. Some writers say that the " ______ phase" takes place within just a couple of years after bottling. Others say it happens 5 to ten years out. From my own experience, I have noticed that VPs tend to shut down (NOTE: my sweeping generalization here!) at around 7-8 years of age and come out of it at 12-15 years of age. That said, I have noticed some bottlings that took 20+ years to come back into focus, e.g. 1977 Taylor and Graham to name just two.

Again, this is a very controversial statement for many reasons, but something I have paid attention to. Your mileage may vary. My 95 point VP may be your 100 point epiphanal experience and the next person's 85 point disappointment.

[Thomas McColl]

Roy,

Thank you for posting the Quinta do Valle Longo tasting note, and for the very informative answers. What a great site!

Of course, I should have thought of including the weather as a most significant factor. (And as an aside, is it possible that warmer summers might lead to a series of great vintages, and that eventually, prices might fall somewhat?)

Also if there are increasing numbers of new small producers, not bound to a traditional house style, do you think there will be more forward-style port being made?

Thomas

[Dave Johnson]

Ray, thanks for the great post. But I have a comment on this topic. I bought some '77's on release. I tasted a few bottles at that time. They really were undrinkable. Harsh, dry tannins, hot - unpleasant. Now as a counterpoint, a few months ago I had the '00 Taylor, and yes the flavors were "primary" but it was DRINKABLE and very pleasant.
I would love to get other Forum member's thoughst/opinions on their experiences over the years.

[Roy Hersh]

Thomas and Dave,

I will reserve my response to your questions until I return from Portugal at the end of the month. This should give enough time for others to find this fabulous thread (one of my favorites in quite awhile!). Great questions and discussions and I look forward to some contrarian viewpoints!

I'd almost like to post an advertisement for this thread.

[simon Lisle]

With drinking young port becoming more popular will this leave less on the market in 15 years time when they truly are at their peak.

[Doug Zdanivsky]

The downside, with the 2003 vintage at least, is that they can cost more than more mature ports, even from 83 and 85.

Why is that?

[Jay Powers]

A good question, and one which I cannot answer in any meaningful way, not being a member of the wine trade and being relatively new to port. But of course I'll try anyways ! For an answer that may be more meaningful, there are a couple of threads in the forum which discuss the topic, both with Port and Bordeaux.

I think in part it's because it's human nature to go after the latest and greatest thing...the 2003's in this case, which have recieved great reviews both here and from Parker and the Wine Spectator. These ratings of course have a massive impact on prices. Looking at BevMo here in the bay area, the prices on 2003 went up 20-30% from one week to the next when one set of ratings came out! Fortunately other retailers did not respond so dramatically. But if you look at Broadbent's ratings, people do not respond so dramatically, even though with his 50+ years of experience tasting ports it would seem that he should be better able to judge what a young port is going to turn into than Mr. Parker

But why not buy 2000 instead? My feeling is that for those from the UK in general, the 2000 vintage is preferred, and in the US the 2003 vintage is preferred. Is this an old world/new world thing? Is it that the 2003 vintage wines are "bigger" and appeals more to the US audience? The 2000 Vesuvio retails here for ~65$, while the 2003 is closer to $90! and the 2000 Vesuvio is by all accounts an excellent wine which is comparable to the 2003 (or better ), and is three years closer to drinking. Premier Cru just had the 1985 Warres on sale for $55 ~1 month ago. This wine is probably at it's apex right now, and emminantly drinkable. But Warres is out of fashion, not new, not the thing.....I think a good analogy is consumer electronics, where you must buy the latest thing...

Of course I did buy some 2003 ports :twisted: :twisted: . But I bought more of the 2000, and paid less .

Jay

[Doug Zdanivsky]

If it truly is the case that 15-20 year old ports can be had for less than the 2003's, it would seem a no brainer, provided the 83's and 85's were good vintages..

Were they?

I have only tried a VP once so far..

A Dow '83..

Was pretty darn good.. :)

[Mike Kerr]

'83 and '85 are good vintages. (Check out http://www.fortheloveofport.com/article ... _chart.htm)

The risk with purchasing older vintages is that you don't generally know what the bottle history has been if you're buying by the bottle. It could have been standing up on the wine shelf for five or six years under the ceiling lights. In my experience, most retail wine shops are not temperature controlled to wine cellar levels, either. My theory is they aim to turn over their stocks, so they just make sure the store isn't hot. As a result you might find a wine that has artificially aged, or maybe with a dry cork.

Having said that, I haven't found a bad bottle yet from shopping around stores. Then again, I've learned which stores in my area have decent port turnover, so bottles on the shelf isn't really an issue.

When you buy a case, or buy single bottles on some of the auction sites, you have a better idea of the provenance of the bottle than from shopping at a store.

But if you're finding the '03's too expensive for your budget, then by all means buy up some of those 83's and 85's and enjoy them!

Mike.

[Doug Zdanivsky]

The risk with purchasing older vintages is that you don't generally know what the bottle history has been if you're buying by the bottle.

Word..

But I know I sure don't have the patience to wait even 10 years.. :)

With VP's being as expensive as they are, for sure I will only go to shops where their inventory is well looked after..

[Mike Kerr]

While provenance may be in question, you can usually get away with most typical wine shop storage situations when buying 2000 or 2003 ports simply because they won't have had time to deteriorate to any great extent on the shelf. If I can go to the supermarket and buy a '80 Graham off the shelf with dust on it at a decent price and it's delicious, the same can go for '00 or '03.

Hell, I just plopped down just over $200 for a case of 2000 Vesuvio - that's just over $17 per bottle! Unless it's been through a fire, I expect that the bottles will be in decent enough shape and well worth the risk.

So even though it's good to be careful when buying questionable bottles, there are deals are out there, you just need to be patient in finding them. It also depends what your goal is. If it's to lay down a bottle or twelve for twenty years, then yeah, you'll probably want to go for the provenance. On the other hand, if you want to consume the bottle within the next ten years, then risk is on your side, IMO.

To find deals like the one I found, just invest in the pro version of Wine-Searcher and set alarms. I set Wine Searcher to email me when it saw Vesuvio under $45 anywhere in the US. Lo and behold!

You *will* find affordable 2000 and 2003 bottles, of that I'm sure!

Mike.

[Roy Hersh]

I can't wait to hear about the quality of your Vesuvio buy. It is either a fantastic price and the retailer has a huge need for shelf or storage space or cash. Otherwise, the bottles may have been purchased at a salvage sale from one of the New Orleans wine shops that was flooded. I am only half joking. That price sounds too good to be true (although of course I do believe you!).

[Tom Archer]

Whether to drink old or young comes down entirely to personal taste.

Personally, I am not greatly awed by 'fruit bombs' or wines that are fiercely tannic, but I respect the right of others to take a different view.

My personal liking is for the smooth and mellow - wines that have no aggressive notes. I don't think I've drunk a wine more recent than '83 that meets this criteria properly, although some '85's are very close to the mark.

Tom

[Roy Hersh]

This exact topic was discussed elsewhere and I wanted to ressurect this thread in order to point people to it ... but also to give it another run through with an entirely different group of FTLOP participants.

Your thoughts?

[Peter W. Meek]

Roy,

It's called a "Bump". You just post a new reply with the single word, "Bump".

It puts the topic at the beginning of the list of topics again.

Standard forum tactic.

[Moses Botbol]

Hell, I just plopped down just over $200 for a case of 2000 Vesuvio - that's just over $17 per bottle! Unless it's been through a fire, I expect that the bottles will be in decent enough shape and well worth the risk.

Wow, that is some deal! I must admit I did enjoy Quinta de Ventozelo 2003 VP. I tried a couple of loose bottles while packed a away a 6 pack for the long term. I guess if you don't have aged bottles handy or want a fruit bomb, drink a younger port. I just think it's a bit of a disservice to VP, letting newbies try a 2007 VP and expect them to like it or want to buy a bottle. What's the point?