Is a colheita from a declared vintage year better than a non declared year?

[Eus Wust]

A question from a colheita newbie: if i have to choose between two colheitas with almost the same age, is the best choice the one from the year with the most vintage ports declared?

Thanks, Eus

[Eric Menchen]

Ahhh, I think this is a loaded question and the real answer is, it depends. It depends on what years we are talking about and what label. One theory would be that for the declared year, there was just lots of good juice, so that would make for the best colheitas as well. The counter-theory is that in that declared year, all the good juice went to making VP, so you're better off getting the colheita from the off-year. You can apply similar arguments to LBV. What years and label were you considering?

I'm just guessing here, but I think it might be really worthwhile somewhere in the future to try some colheitas from the almost-VP years, like 1987, which many consider to have been declaration worthy, but not declared after 1980, 1983, and 1985. In 10 or 20 years I might pick an '87 over an '85.

Of course there are some bad years which should probably be avoided in any case.

[Glenn E.]

I really don't think there's any rule of thumb for this. I've had the whole spectrum of experiences - great Colheitas from "bad" VP years and merely adequate Colheitas from "classic" VP years, but also great Colheitas from great VP years and very average Colheitas from very average VP years.

Though I'd happily attend a tasting to attempt to determine an answer to the question!

[Derek T.]

I don't have as much experience of Colheitas as others here, but one observation I would make is that specialist Colheita makers have historically not been big in the Vintage Port market. Producers such as Burmester, Krohn, Feist and even Neipoort have been very focused on making excellent Colheita and tawny ports as their premium product. For that reason I would strongly suspect that in very good years, suitable for producing VP, these producers would reserve a significant amount of juice for their Colheitas and Tawny ports, whilst others such as Dow, Graham, Fonseca, Warre etc would be pouring almost all of their best juice into the VP blend in classic years.

If that is true, I would think that the traditional wood aged port specialists would be making fantastic stuff in classic VP years.

[Andy Velebil]

There is no right or wrong answer here, as both have produced very good and not so good ones. That said, the majority of Colheita's on the market come from non-classic declaration years since most houses may use their best grapes to make tawny's. Whereas in a classic declaration year most of those top grapes will go toward their VP's and not a tawny.

Please keep in mind that is VERY general description.

[Eus Wust]

Thank you all. I'll experiment with some Kopke, which is a colheita widely available in Holland.

[Glenn E.]

I would strongly suspect that in very good years, suitable for producing VP, these producers would reserve a significant amount of juice for their Colheitas and Tawny ports, whilst others such as Dow, Graham, Fonseca, Warre etc would be pouring almost all of their best juice into the VP blend in classic years.

If that is true, I would think that the traditional wood aged port specialists would be making fantastic stuff in classic VP years.

I agree with what you're saying, but remember that VP makes up a mere 2% of Port production. I think the 98th percentile grapes from the VP-centric producers are probably still pretty good in a classic year.

[Eric Menchen]

... but remember that VP makes up a mere 2% of Port production. I think the 98th percentile grapes from the VP-centric producers are probably still pretty good in a classic year.

And colheita is only 1%. But I think those figures are overall, so that while 2% of overall Port production is VP, in a declared year they will be using more than 2% of the grapes, more like 6 or 7% (assuming 3 declarations out of 10 years). In the non-declared years they will use 0.

[Roy Hersh]

Derek, although Niepoort certainly concentrates much time to wood-aged Ports, throughout the companies history there can be no denying how prevalent and well-made are their Vintage Ports. Try a 1927, 1942, 1945, 1955, 1963, 1970 as examples of their excellence and I think that there is enough history and quality to be considered as one example of a producer who has successfully excelled in both Colheita and Vintage Ports.

As to Eus' original question ... others have agreed that sometimes great Colheitas come from classically declared vintages and other times, not. So there is no rule when it comes to Colheita and I can find GREAT Colheita years like the 1937 vintage as the hallmark for Colheitas produced in not so good years for Vintage, and others like 1952 and 1957, both of which are also outstanding years for Colheita. Compare them to bottlngs from 1985, 1970, 1963 and 1966 as a few examples of great VP years that also are known for some seriously stellar Colheitas.

[Derek T.]

Derek, although Niepoort certainly concentrates much time to wood-aged Ports, throughout the companies history there can be no denying how prevalent and well-made are their Vintage Ports. Try a 1927, 1942, 1945, 1955, 1963, 1970 as examples of their excellence and I think that there is enough history and quality to be considered as one example of a producer who has successfully excelled in both Colheita and Vintage Ports.

Roy,

I didn't mean to suggest that Niepoort would not use great juice in their VPs in classic years. The point I was trying (and obviously failing) to make is that a traditional VP producer (Graham, Taylor, etc.) would use as much of their best juice as they could to make their VP in a stellar year, whilst a producer who concentrates more on Colheita would be likely to reserve some (or perhaps all) of their best lots to be aged in wood. Niepoort probably fall in between the two extremes, which is why I qualified their inclusion in my list.

Does that make more sense?

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

Understood, but that is not what I was discussing.

You wrote:

" ... I would make is that specialist Colheita makers have historically not been big in the Vintage Port market. Producers such as Burmester, Krohn, Feist and even Neipoort have been very focused on making excellent Colheita and tawny ports as their premium product."

While I think that Niepoort may have been likely better known for their wood-aged Ports, from what I know of Dirk's ancestry, Vintage Port was absolutely AS IMPORTANT to them as the Garrafeira/Colheitas they produced. Of course the LBV and Rubies are a big piece to their production as well as Tawny Port with an indication of age.

I know that some people or even entire countries look at Niepoort as pretty much being a wood-aged specialist (as you mentioned), but ... almost to the exclusion (in their markets) of bottled aged Ports like Vintage. My own personal experience, which is really all I can speak for, is that Niepoort is likely THE greatest exception to the rule, and probably THE greatest example of a producer that does both with extraordinary aplomb.

Can you name any other producer that has a century of history making BOTH types of Port with regularity (classic VP & Colheita) at such a high level, besides Niepoort ? At best, I can only come up with the possibility of Noval. And in Noval's case, they don't have nearly the quality track record, (not including Nacional) of amazing Vintage Ports going back 100 years, and certainly not the regularity in Coleheita production as does Niepoort over that period of time.

[Derek T.]

The key sentence in my previous post was...

The point I was trying (and obviously failing) to make

As I said, I tried to qualify my inclusion of Niepoort, for exactly the reason you describe, but clearly didn't express my reasoning adequately enough. In hindsight, that producer should not have been included in my list.

[Glenn E.]

Can you name any other producer that has a century of history making BOTH types of Port with regularity (classic VP & Colheita) at such a high level, besides Niepoort ? At best, I can only come up with the possibility of Noval. And in Noval's case, they don't have nearly the quality track record, (not including Nacional) of amazing Vintage Ports going back 100 years, and certainly not the regularity in Coleheita production as does Niepoort over that period of time.

Personally, I don't place Niepoort on all that high of a quality pedestal in either the VP or Colheita category. Their products are excellent and there have been a couple of notable exceptions, but in general to me they aren't top-tier in either category. It is entirely possible that I just don't like their styles... I find them interesting and enjoy them, but I don't normally find myself truely wowed by them.

On the other hand, I have been wowed with reasonable regularity by both categories of Noval's products. Perhaps I have been lucky in my selection and/or timing, but I can name several cases off the top of my head where a Noval was amazing. The 1947 VP we had at the 2009 Port Gala blew me away. I shared a 1963 VP with a friend that was just sublime, and yes I know the story behind the 1963. The 1937 Colheita is knock-your-socks-off amazing. My stash of 1964 Colheitas doesn't normally reach the amazing level, but they're consistently at the very high end of excellent. Their 40-yr old (admittedly not a Colheita) is in my top 3 for the category. The 2003 VP was my favorite young VP while it was very young, and I suspect it's going to develop into an amazing Port once it has 30-40 years of age on it. The 1997 VP is incredible, too.

Do they have a century of history at that level in both categories? No, but to me neither does Niepoort.

But beyond Niepoort and Noval... no, I can't think of anyone that has a history of achieving excellence with both regularly. Most producers are notable for one or the other, not both.

[Roy Hersh]

Glenn,

Unless I am missing something, a check of the TNDB shows the oldest Niepoort VP you have had was the 1992. Is that possible, given what you wrote above? I know the TNDB is acting up lately, so just curious; as I don't want to jump to conclusions.

[Glenn E.]

Hmm... no, that doesn't seem possible, but off the top of my head I can't think of an older one. I would have to look through my tasting notebook to be sure.

Surely there was an older one than that at the 2009 Port Gala? But those TNs should all be in the TNDB.

A quick look through just the back half of my notebook turned up a 1983 (FTLOP 80s retrospective, 92 points) and a 1955 (55@55 in London, 88 points). There are probably more... those two were just easy to find. I do think that I have had more Niepoort Colheitas than VPs, though. And I do like both... I just don't consider them to be in the very top tier in either category.

(I probably shouldn't admit this, but I don't always take TNs and even when I do I don't always get them entered into the TNDB. )

Edit: hahaha... yes, there was an older one at the 2009 Port Gala. The 1960 Niepoort was my second favorite Port of the "Older VPs" tasting on Sunday... right behind the 1947 Noval.

[Eric Menchen]

And Glenn had 1970 Niepoort in LA. That was a wonderful bottle.

[Roy Hersh]

Just got a message from David, that the TNDB has been fixed, so I would bet your notes (at least whatever you did enter) are back in there now. Good on you having some of those older bottles. If you liked the 1960, you need to try the 1963 which is still quite nice and the oldies have really held up well.

[Moses Botbol]

I can find GREAT Colheita years like the 1937 vintage as the hallmark for Colheitas produced in not so good years for Vintage, and others like 1952 and 1957, both of which are also outstanding years for Colheita. Compare them to bottlngs from 1985, 1970, 1963 and 1966 as a few examples of great VP years that also are known for some seriously stellar Colheitas.

Colheitas have their own great vintages as Roy has mentioned. I have only tried one 1970 Colheita (great VP Vintage) from Andreson and it was fantastic. I can't think of many great VP vintages that I saw Colheita for sale. I just go for the Colheita vintages I know that are good.

[Daniel R.]

I don't have as much experience of Colheitas as others here, but one observation I would make is that specialist Colheita makers have historically not been big in the Vintage Port market. Producers such as Burmester, Krohn, Feist and even Neipoort have been very focused on making excellent Colheita and tawny ports as their premium product. For that reason I would strongly suspect that in very good years, suitable for producing VP, these producers would reserve a significant amount of juice for their Colheitas and Tawny ports, whilst others such as Dow, Graham, Fonseca, Warre etc would be pouring almost all of their best juice into the VP blend in classic years.

If that is true, I would think that the traditional wood aged port specialists would be making fantastic stuff in classic VP years.

I read somewhere (I searched but could not find it now) that exactly the same juice went into 1961 Krohn Colheita (an all time classic) and 1961 Krohn Vintage (has anyone tried this?)

[Roy Hersh]

Ultimately, that is something that could be likely any time that a VP and Colheita from the same producer and same vintage are both vinified and bottled. Of course it is no guarantee either; but there are plenty of examples of a Port shipper producing both a VP and Colheita in the same year. Niepoort did so in both 1970, others have as well. Finding out if it the identical grapes or juice were used back in the day would require research with the producer. That shouldn't be hard to find out though.