Some questions about Port!

[Julien S]

Hi everybody!

As I said in my introduction I am a law student for almost 5 years and I'm specialised in wine's law. I have to do a oral presentation on 3th of March and I chose to present Port and his rules.
I met a lot of difficulties to find informations I want. Indeed, I don't speak Portuguese and I'm not really good in english neither. One of the most difficult thing was to find which regulation are applicable and to fully understand everything.

So, I still have a lot of interogation I would like to share with you. I'm not expecting to have the answers of all my questions, but a few would hep me a lot!

First on the beneficio system :
Is the price of grapes from each parcel category free?
If yes, can you give me an exemple of how much a liter is selling ?I saw IVDP have parcels too, and that they can sell grapes. Is it their main source of revenu?or does a system of subscription exist? When IVDP makes a decision, that is what is required for the entire sector?

Then on category of port :
I don't understand what the mention "Reserve" means?
Is sweetness reserved to white Porto?
For the rose Port, what are your own point of view? Have you tasted it? And is it a blend of red and white port?

To finish,
Has the Casa of Douro still a real role now?
I saw IVDP have a warranty seal to protect authencity but I guess therewas some trials too. Do you know some especially in the field of counterfeiting?

Normally, each wine designation of origin should send to EU a specification with all the rules of production etc.. Does he exist for Port? Or do we have to use all the different texts of regulation?

Once again, I know you're not specialists of everything I ask, as you' re lover of Port and not law specialists. But a few answer would be great.

Thanks a lot.

Ps: and sorry for my english, I tried to do my best!

Julien.

[Derek T.]

Then on category of port :
I don't understand what the mention "Reserve" means?
Is sweetness reserved to white Porto?
For the rose Port, what are your own point of view? Have you tasted it? And is it a blend of red and white port?

Julien,

I have chosen this category of questions as I could not give you definite answers on the questions related to the laws.

I don't understand what the mention "Reserve" means?
Until a few years ago there was much confusion about the use of the word Reserve/Reserva on Port labels. There was also confusion caused by the use of the name Vintage Character. In 2002 a change in the laws resulted in Vintage Character being abolished and Reserve becoming a defined style of Ruby Port. A Reserve Port must be aged in wood for 4 to 6 years. It is normally a blend of more than one vintage, and certainly cannot have a vintage year stated on the label even if the wine did come from a single harvest.

Is sweetness reserved to white Porto?
No. All styles of Port will have varying degrees of sweetness from very sweet to dry, including white Port. In fact, one of the biggest selling white Ports on the market is "Taylor's Chip Dry"

For the rose Port, what are your own point of view? Have you tasted it? And is it a blend of red and white port?
Rose Port is actually a type of Ruby Port. The light colour is achieved by minimizing the time that the must is in contact with the grape skins. It is most definitely not a blend of red and white. I have tasted quite a few Rose Ports and, although some were quite pleasant, I would not choose to drink this style. As for my point of view on the style in general, I am not convinced that it is a positive move for the Port trade. I am quite sure others here will disagree with my opinion.

[Julien S]

Thank you Derek for your answer !

I still have questions about the Reserve word on labels of Port.
So If I have understood, a Reserva Port is a a sort of Ruby which have aged for 4-6 years in wood. The Reserve Port can't have a age indication because he's a blend of Port from different years.
But I didn't understand when you say that Vintage Port is now abolished. I saw that "Vintage" is a sort of Ruby port from one grape harvest and then he aged in bottles.
IVDP decides which year is enough good to be a Vintage Port.

In fact, is Reserva a blend of "Vintages Port"?
Or simply a blend of Port from differents ages? If yes, the only difference between ruby Port and Rserva Port is the time they aged in wood, no?

[Derek T.]

Julien,

It was not "Vintage Port" that was abolished, it was a style known as "Vintage Character".

Vintage Character ports were ruby ports that were described on the label as having similar characteristics to Vintage Port, which wasn't true. In reality these ports were simply ruby ports that had been aged longer in wood than most other ruby ports so that they would be more mature when bottled ready for drinking. These ports were not from a single harvest and had no real connection to Vintage Port. The Vintage Character style was replaced by "Reserve", which is thought to be a more meaningful and accurate name for the wine that is in the bottle. In reality, Vintage Character Port and Reserve Port are exactly the same thing in terms of the wine in the bottle. The difference is the name.

Vintage Port is an entirely different style, which is from a single harvest and is bottled after 2 to 3 years in wood. It is for the producer to decide which year he will produce a Vintage Port based on the quality of his wines from that harvest and the market conditions at the time. The IVDP's role is to approve each individual Vintage Port as having the characteristics it should have according to the regulations, but the IVDP do not decide in which years Vintage Port can be produced.

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

First on the beneficio system :
Is the price of grapes from each parcel category free?
If yes, can you give me an exemple of how much a liter is selling ?I saw IVDP have parcels too, and that they can sell grapes. Is it their main source of revenu?or does a system of subscription exist? When IVDP makes a decision, that is what is required for the entire sector?

The Beneficio is a VERY complex system and even for those of us who love Port and devote most of our time to it, it is still very difficult to understand. The very short simple answer is the Beneficio say's how much Port each producer can produce in a given year. A producer's Beneficio right, or part of it, can be sold to another producer so that producer can make more Port than their original allotment allowed. There is a minimum price for Port grapes, as set by law. My understanding is this varies based on the vineyard rating and thus quality of the grapes. I don't know what the actual prices are though.

Then on category of port :
I don't understand what the mention "Reserve" means?
Is sweetness reserved to white Porto?
For the rose Port, what are your own point of view? Have you tasted it? And is it a blend of red and white port?

Derek has already done a good job answering this one.

To finish,
Has the Casa of Douro still a real role now?
I saw IVDP have a warranty seal to protect authencity but I guess therewas some trials too. Do you know some especially in the field of counterfeiting?

The Casa do Douro still has a role, albeit a much smaller role compared to when they were a dominate force in the Douro.
The IVDP seal, called a Selo de Garantia, only guaranties that the liquid inside the bottle came from the Demarcated region of the Douro. While I have seen a counterfeited bottle of Port, luckily it is very rare for someone to counterfeit a Port bottle. A question here some time ago asking if anyone here had ever run across a faked bottle got almost no responses. Given how many bottles this group buys and opens a year, that's a very good sign counterfeiting isn't a big issue for Port, at least yet.

Normally, each wine designation of origin should send to EU a specification with all the rules of production etc.. Does he exist for Port? Or do we have to use all the different texts of regulation?

As I don't live in the EU, I am not familiar with their rules. Hopefully one of our members who's more familiar with EU law can help out here.



Good luck with your studies!

[Julien S]

Thank you Andy and Derek !

Categories of Port are not a problem for me anymore!
I' have now to find more informations on beneficio and legislation..

And to finish I have one last question, which is probably really stupid. Is the mixture of wine only at the end of the wine making ? Or do the variety of graps mixed before mutage and alcoholic fermentation?

[Rob C.]

Julien,

A lot (if not all) of the domestic Portuguese legislation relating to Port, Douro wines and the Douro demarcated region can be found on the IVDP website (click on the green tab at the top - "Information" - "Legislation" to navigate the various links). I have found that online translation websites sometimes give you something passable, and sometimes complete nonsense!

Regarding your questions on the Beneficio, it is going to be tough to getter better answers than you are currently getting from Oscar on the Quevedo website!

Is sweetness reserved to white Porto?
No. All styles of Port will have varying degrees of sweetness from very sweet to dry, including white Port. In fact, one of the biggest selling white Ports on the market is "Taylor's Chip Dry"

Derek - the only ports i have seen specifically classified/labelled as being "dry" or "extra dry" are white ports (likewise with "lagrima" for the very sweet style). I don't know whether this is specifically restricted in the legislation, or whether you can have a lagrima, dry or extra dry ruby or tawny port, but i haven't seen one. But perhaps that was what Julien was querying.

[Glenn E.]

And to finish I have one last question, which is probably really stupid. Is the mixture of wine only at the end of the wine making ? Or do the variety of graps mixed before mutage and alcoholic fermentation?

It depends on the producer.

Some producers have what is known as a "field blend" in their fields - the grapes are mixed together and grow side-by-side. They are harvested and fermented together as well.

Other producers have turned to what is known as "block planting" so that they can keep their grapes separate. This allows them to harvest each type of grape at its peak ripeness. Once harvested, they can either be blended before fermenting or after. I believe that most producers keep them separate and do the blending once the Port has been made, but I do not know for sure.

[Derek T.]

Is sweetness reserved to white Porto?
No. All styles of Port will have varying degrees of sweetness from very sweet to dry, including white Port. In fact, one of the biggest selling white Ports on the market is "Taylor's Chip Dry"

Derek - the only ports i have seen specifically classified/labelled as being "dry" or "extra dry" are white ports (likewise with "lagrima" for the very sweet style). I don't know whether this is specifically restricted in the legislation, or whether you can have a lagrima, dry or extra dry ruby or tawny port, but i haven't seen one. But perhaps that was what Julien was querying.

I didn't interpret the question as being one about a particular "classification". My answer is therefore in relation to the flavour profile of the wines, some of which are sweet (e.g. Graham) and others dry (e.g. Dow).

[Julien S]

Thanks everybody !!

Yes I know for the links on the IVDP website. traduction are passable at best, and there's a lot of legislation, but I'll be studying them again.
I was just trying my luck with you, if anyone had any experience on the subject...

When I asked about sweetness of Port I meant "classification" and in particular on the label. So it seems to be reserved for White Port only.

And just to be sure, others quality classification, as Vintage of LBV can be used for White Port too ? (Obviously if they're ok with the conditions)

Thank at all the FTLOP community !

[Glenn E.]

And just to be sure, others quality classification, as Vintage of LBV can be used for White Port too ? (Obviously if they're ok with the conditions)

Yes. White Port can be vintage-dated in the case of Colheita (for example the 1952 Dalva Golden White Colheita) and can also be found as age-indicated Ports. Kopke makes the entire line of age-indicated white Ports... 10, 20, 30, and 40-yr old.

I do not know whether or not it is theoretically possible to make a Vintage White Port, meaning a bottle-aged VP made from white grapes.

[Eric Menchen]

And just to be sure, others quality classification, as Vintage of LBV can be used for White Port too ? (Obviously if they're ok with the conditions)

No. Looking at the 2005 version of the regs (where are the current ones?) on the IVDP website, I see in the first section under "Vintage" that it must be retinto, which google says is a deep purple. For LBV, it says it must be tinto, which I know to be red.

BTW, I think I saw a chart once from the IVDP that gave ranges of residual sugar in conjunction with some sweetness names, but that wasn't regulatory. In the DOC regulation I just found this, translation from Google:

Article 4
The optional label
It may include also the labeling of the bottle of port wine any of the following:
a) Reference to the Douro Region;
b) the number of kind of sweetness, as defined in Article 11, paragraph 1, subparagraph a) of Regulation Title 5494 JOURNAL OF THE REPUBLIC SERIES-II On 73-12 April 2006 Source Port, approved by Decree-Law No 166/86, June 26;

So while that isn't pretty English, it points to a regulation that does define sweetness terms. Finding that regulation is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Eric Menchen]

O.k., I couldn't help myself. This is from the possibly outdated 1986 regulation:

a) Quanto ao grau de doçura, em massa volúmica a 20º.C:
Muito doce ou lágrima - de 1034 a 1084;
Doce - de 1018 a 1034;
Meio seco - de 1008 a 1018;
Seco - de 998 a 1008;
Extra seco-inferior a 998;

Interesting that they define it in density instead of residual sugar in g/l or other units. It is easy to measure the finished density, but it is not a 100% accurate measure of sugar content. Then again, even if it was, perceived sweetness is a different thing too, so why get that picky

[Derek T.]

I don't see anything in there that would limit these regulations to white wine, and the rule applies to DOC, not Port, or am I missing something?

[Eric Menchen]

I don't see anything in there that would limit these regulations to white wine, and the rule applies to DOC, not Port, or am I missing something?

No, there is nothing that limits that to only white wine that I could find. VP and LBV, however, can't be white. That article 4 applies to Port, not non-Port DOC wine. Here's the complete Google translation:

Article 4
The optional label
It may include also the labeling of the bottle of port [emphasis added] wine any of the following:
a) Reference to the Douro Region;
b) the number of kind of sweetness, as defined in Article 11, paragraph 1, subparagraph a) of Regulation Title 5494 JOURNAL OF THE REPUBLIC SERIES-II On 73-12 April 2006 Source Port, approved by Decree-Law No 166/86, June 26;
c) One of the traditional terms referred to in Article 6;
d) a reference to at least four or more varieties of the Port wine comes;
e) Reference to the status of the entity, under the law into force when the wine in question is derived exclusively Grape vines are taken from the part of vineyard and the winemaking has been made in this exploitation;
f) 'not filtered' or 'Unfiltered' possibly associated with particulars referred to in paragraph a) of paragraph 1 of Article 6 to wines Crusted, Late Bottled Vintage, Vintage or Reserve ruby, under the conditions prescribed by IVDP;
g) whether the wine has been aged in wood for wines with a harvest date with indication of age Reserve wines and tawny white and Reserve when they have aged in wood for at least six years;
h) Other information permitted under the regulations national, community or country of destination.

[Glenn E.]

VP and LBV, however, can't be white.

I may have misunderstood Julian's question. Since he said "Vintage of LBV" I read that as asking whether or not it is possible to have vintage dated white Ports, which you clearly can in the case of Colheitas.

If, however, he meant using the proper term "Vintage Port" or "LBV" on a white Port, then of course Eric is correct.

[Julien S]

The most recent reglementation I found on the IVDP website is the 242/2010 that you can find here (in portuguese) : http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/legislacao/361.pdf
This text invalidates some reglementation too

What google trad and I have understood is that sweetness can be mentioned on labels of every Port.

I saw too that you have to send sample to IVDP. A jury tasts it and decides if the wine can be sold (with harder conditions for specials categories of Port).
Is it true?

[Julien S]

And this reglementation from 2009 invalidates a lot of past regulation including the one from 86 Eric.
http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/legislacao/336.pdf

[Eric Menchen]

Thanks for those links. I knew a new version of the regs had come out (think I even mentioned that somewhere around here), but wasn't able to find them last I checked at the IVDP web site.

Yes, the submission of samples process continues, and I don't think that will go away any time soon.