1977 Taylor cases at Spectrum Auction in London

[Jay Hack]

The scandal-ridden Spectrum wine auction in London (See http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=61172 for info) just auctioned 3 cases of Taylor 1977 a few minutes ago. The first OWC was 650 British pounds, the second was 550 pounds and the third, which did not say OWC, was also 550. There is an additional 15.5% premium. That's roughly $1000 a case. Very cheap if provenance is good, but that's the issue here - there is evidence that some of the expensive stuff comes from a known counterfeiter. BUT I doubt anyone would bother counterfeiting something so cheap.

[Jeff G.]

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/ ... -in-london

Would you consider Jacob's creek too cheap to counterfeit? =)

[Eric Menchen]

Oh yeah, I was perusing that auction the other day and forgot to go back. Perhaps I'm better off for sleeping.

One would think that the selo numbers on Port could provide some measure of authenticity if they could all be validated. That was the whole point of those. Do any of the auction houses check them? A clever counterfeiter would make duplicates of known numbers and corresponding bottles, but not all criminals are that clever.

[Roy Hersh]

Jay,

I can't believe you would bring the "Rudy" issue here. My brother has consumed Burgs with him at past versions of La Paulee, prior to the Acker debacle. Rudy was one of the wealthier and more generous people in the wine game. My brother likes to tell of a story with a 6 liter bottle of well-aged La Tache that Rudy shared at one of the tastings. Anyway, sorry to see that scandal ... brought here, just because that auction house is fraught with issues from one particular contributor who is rumored (not proven) to be the person putting in a bunch of lotes of wine. The likelihood that Rudy had ANYTHING to do with Port, no less this particular group of cases, is less than very remote and I was inclined to delete this entire nonsense. But I will leave it, for any rubbernecks that choose to try to connect dots that are just not there.

[Andy Velebil]

Jay,

I can't believe you would bring the "Rudy" issue here. My brother has consumed Burgs with him at past versions of La Paulee, prior to the Acker debacle. Rudy was one of the wealthier and more generous people in the wine game. My brother likes to tell of a story with a 6 liter bottle of well-aged La Tache that Rudy shared at one of the tastings. Anyway, sorry to see that scandal ... brought here, just because that auction house is fraught with issues from one particular contributor who is rumored (not proven) to be the person putting in a bunch of lotes of wine. The likelihood that Rudy had ANYTHING to do with Port, no less this particular group of cases, is less than very remote and I was inclined to delete this entire nonsense. But I will leave it, for any rubbernecks that choose to try to connect dots that are just not there.

I'll disagree as Spectrum has done a good job of avoiding where many of the wines have come from, specifically. By all accounts from Don Cornwell, who spoke first hand to one of their Consignment Directors and was flat out told where many of these wines came from and even the concerns of selling these wines from that same consignment director.

I too have drank with Rudy on more than one occasion and yes he is very generous and has an amazing palate. That said, he bought a ton of stuff without looking closely at provenance and no doubt ended up buying many fakes along the way. I don't think, although I could very well be wrong, that Rudy has himself faked any wine. But his cellar has been proven to have plenty of fake or very suspected fraudulent wines. For Spectrum to take in ANY wines from his cellar at this point, given all the past issues with his wines, is very irresponsible to say the least. I do know Rudy has some old Ports in his cellar, as he told me first hand. However, I have no idea if any of those ended up in this auction or not. Regardless, I personally would buy no wine from any auction that contained wines consigned from Rudy or consigned by another on Rudy's behalf (which appears to be the case in the Spectrum auction).

I also should point out, at the last minute MANY lots were withdrawn from that auction today.....

[Jeff G.]

Jay,

I can't believe you would bring the "Rudy" issue here. My brother has consumed Burgs with him at past versions of La Paulee, prior to the Acker debacle. Rudy was one of the wealthier and more generous people in the wine game. My brother likes to tell of a story with a 6 liter bottle of well-aged La Tache that Rudy shared at one of the tastings. Anyway, sorry to see that scandal ... brought here, just because that auction house is fraught with issues from one particular contributor who is rumored (not proven) to be the person putting in a bunch of lotes of wine. The likelihood that Rudy had ANYTHING to do with Port, no less this particular group of cases, is less than very remote and I was inclined to delete this entire nonsense. But I will leave it, for any rubbernecks that choose to try to connect dots that are just not there.

I'll disagree as Spectrum has done a good job of avoiding where many of the wines have come from, specifically. By all accounts from Don Cornwell, who spoke first hand to one of their Consignment Directors and was flat out told where many of these wines came from and even the concerns of selling these wines from that same consignment director.

I too have drank with Rudy on more than one occasion and yes he is very generous and has an amazing palate. That said, he bought a ton of stuff without looking closely at provenance and no doubt ended up buying many fakes along the way. I don't think, although I could very well be wrong, that Rudy has himself faked any wine. But his cellar has been proven to have plenty of fake or very suspected fraudulent wines. For Spectrum to take in ANY wines from his cellar at this point, given all the past issues with his wines, is very irresponsible to say the least. I do know Rudy has some old Ports in his cellar, as he told me first hand. However, I have no idea if any of those ended up in this auction or not. Regardless, I personally would buy no wine from any auction that contained wines consigned from Rudy or consigned by another on Rudy's behalf (which appears to be the case in the Spectrum auction).

I also should point out, at the last minute MANY lots were withdrawn from that auction today.....

not to mention that the certain consignment director is a very well respected individual

A more devious look at the situation is that if I were in the game of faking bottles, what's it to me to pop open a 6L bottle of 1945 La tache to ooh and wow the crowd especially since it would have cost me very little to make.

Hell if I were to get into the business, I'd have so much fake wine floating around my cellar that I'd welcome all the major buyers/wine writers to come over and drink whatever they want, rave about how amazing that the 1833 Lafite still had a dark ruby hue to it, get alot of rich "friends" then proceed to say "Oh, I got tired of drinking lafite and I wanted to try some port instead so i'm selling the collection I've amassed in the past 3 years"

And because I've faked soo much of the wine, if anyone questions my validity, I can simply say, "Go ahead, open a bottle and taste for yourself". And because we live on the flawed idea that all wines from a particular house and a particular year will always blow your socks off, no one will question the validity of such bottles, instead say "Oh, this tastes soo good it must be real"

So let me ask you this my fellow port drinkers.

I know many of you have indeed had many many fine/old bottles.

Is bordeaux/burgundy this magical place where bottle variation doesn't happen?

Can a dry red wine defy nature and still retain a dark ruby color after 70years when even some of the best of ports have such trouble?
http://www.spectrumwine.com/images/inve ... 832_01.jpg This is a 67 year old PINOT and it's ina clear green glass.
Look at that color. I can assure you that I have some great burgs from good vintages in my cellar that are not as old and it's certainly no where NEAR that dark.

Would it not be possible that if you did fake a whole bunch of bottles, that it wouldn't pain you to freely open any bottle that anyone asks?

[Jay Hack]

Guys - chill out. I was making a serious comment about the price of the Taylor and I thought that my comment that people would not counterfeit it would obviate, rather than encourage, a discussion of the issue of the other bottles.

[Jeff G.]

Guys - chill out. I was making a serious comment about the price of the Taylor and I thought that my comment that people would not counterfeit it would obviate, rather than encourage, a discussion of the issue of the other bottles.

Ooh the problems of the 1% when we think 1000$ is just a pittance

[Al B.]

If the Taylor 1977 was genuine - and I have no reason to believe otherwise - the buyer got himself a good bargain. £60 a bottle is roughly 30% below the current auction average.

I note that the 1945 Taylor didn't sell.

[Jeff G.]

Jay,

I can't believe you would bring the "Rudy" issue here. My brother has consumed Burgs with him at past versions of La Paulee, prior to the Acker debacle. Rudy was one of the wealthier and more generous people in the wine game. My brother likes to tell of a story with a 6 liter bottle of well-aged La Tache that Rudy shared at one of the tastings. Anyway, sorry to see that scandal ... brought here, just because that auction house is fraught with issues from one particular contributor who is rumored (not proven) to be the person putting in a bunch of lotes of wine. The likelihood that Rudy had ANYTHING to do with Port, no less this particular group of cases, is less than very remote and I was inclined to delete this entire nonsense. But I will leave it, for any rubbernecks that choose to try to connect dots that are just not there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/09/nyreg ... &seid=auto

hate to burst the bubble about Rudy, Roy.

"Mr. Kurniawan was arrested by agents from an elite squad based in New York that focuses on crimes involving art, antiques and other collectibles. At a hearing in United States District Court in Los Angeles on Thursday, prosecutors said a search of Mr. Kurniawan’s home had turned up materials used in the counterfeiting of wine bottles, according to a person briefed on the proceeding. "

[Andy Velebil]

Uh, I stand corrected. Yikes, but glad they arrested him if the allegations are true

“Yesterday, the FBI searched Kurniawan’s home pursuant to a judicial search warrant and found an elaborate counterfeiting operation. The agents found and seized, among other things, the following:

• Thousands of printed wine labels to many of the most expensive wines in the world, such as Domaine de la Romanée-Conti and Chateau Petrus. A photograph of some of the labels that were seized is attached as Exhibit A.

• Hundreds of corks, foil wrappers used to cover corks, and wax used to seal corks. A photograph of some of the foil wrappers and labels is attached as Exhibit B.

• Scores of rubber stamps for vintages (years in which a wine was made), the names of wineries, and other identifying features found on wine bottles. A photograph of some of the rubber stamps is attached as Exhibit C.

• Glue, stencils, special scissors that cut paper in the particular pattern of certain wine labels.

• A mechanical device used to insert corks into wine bottles.

• Scores of bottles in the preparatory stages of being converted into counterfeit bottles, such as bottles without labels, bottles with inconsistent labeling (for example, bottles with counterfeit labels attached but some of the authentic labels still on the bottle because they had not yet been removed by Kurniawan).

• Bottles of moderately priced California wine with writing on the bottles indicating that the California wines would be used to pass as expensive Bordeaux wines.

• Bottles soaking in the kitchen sink to aid in the removal of the wine labels.

[Eric Menchen]

Sounds like everything including the kitchen sink.

[Derek T.]

I have no idea how American justice works, but, in the UK we have an underlying principle that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

But that is a very long list of things that point away from him being innocent.

Is he related to Hardy Rodenstock by any chance?

[Andy Velebil]

Sounds like everything including the kitchen sink.

[Andy Velebil]

I have no idea how American justice works, but, in the UK we have an underlying principle that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

But that is a very long list of things that point away from him being innocent.

Is he related to Hardy Rodenstock by any chance?

We have the same...but that laundry list is quite extensive and damning if correct. I wonder how this will impact Vanquish in the UK, as the FBI's investigation also seems to encompass the recent Spectrum/Vanquish auction in the UK.

[Eric Menchen]

... everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

And as Andy said, we have the same. But isn't that phrasing a bit damning? "Until" seems to imply we're waiting for it to happen--it eventually will. Shouldn't it be, "innocent unless proven guilty."

[Andy Velebil]

Check out the photos on Mike Steinberger's Winediarist, WOW is all I can say

http://winediarist.com/wp-content/uploa ... 3/Ex-A.gif
http://winediarist.com/wp-content/uploa ... 3/Ex-B.gif
http://winediarist.com/wp-content/uploa ... 3/Ex-B.gif

Here is the link to the Fed's trying to get a no-bail hold on him. http://winediarist.com/wp-content/uploa ... Appeal.pdf

[Derek T.]

... everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

And as Andy said, we have the same. But isn't that phrasing a bit damning? "Until" seems to imply we're waiting for it to happen--it eventually will. Shouldn't it be, "innocent unless proven guilty."

These are not my words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

[Jeff G.]

I think an interesting point raised by some of the commenters in the other forum is that, how can you really be sure about some of the more "mythical" bottles you've tasted.

That 1800 Lafite that still tasted like it had plums in it?

Personally, if i were in the business of faking, i'd keep all the legit bottles to myself and only myself. I'd drink 1 or 2 bottles to see what they taste like, then fake the rest to everyone else. That way I control exactly what I want people to taste. I'd gain nothing serving people anything legit. I'd open so much of the fake stuff and have people taste so much of it that they start believing my fakes are the real things, and when the real thing shows up, people will think that's the fake instead. Then after the market has heated up, I'd take all my legit bottles with legit provenances to china and sell it there at an extreme premium.

[Tom Archer]

The big boys are taking this seriously...

http://view.sothebys-email.com/?j=fe951 ... 747c1c&r=0