Level of quality and price VP vs. Bordeaux 1ers Crus

[Michael M.]

The following prices of 2003 VP in Germany/ Austria could be searched out. Fonseca 72,50EUR, Niepoort 50 EUR, Croft 55 EUR, Vesuvio 45 EUR and Taylor's 67,50 EUR resp. 56 EUR- retail-prices, including tax. All prices confirmed.

According to my investigations, 2003 was a very good year for Port. If I remeber correctly, James Suckling gave 98/100 points and also Roy agrees.

At present, the Future-Market for the Vintage 2005 Bordeaux is on the top, with incredible prices for the top notch wines. Would you say, that- although different kind of wines- Taylor and Fonseca (for instance) are on the same level of quality as Latour, Margaux or Ausonne, reaching prices about 500 EUR/bottle?

9 bottles Taylor's 2003 for 1 bottle Latour 2005? Or 7 bottles Taylor's 2000 for 1 bottle Latour 2000? Isn't there something wrong with the proportion? Both Taylors are rated 98 points by Mr. Parker.

Self-evident, that the demand for Bordeaux 1ers Crus actually can not be compared with VP. But will that remain unchanged? Would you therefore say, that VP could perhaps also be a good investment? I can't imagine, that the prices for VP could significant fall in the future. And it should be a long-lived product and produced in little quantities (if compared to the production of Latour with 500.000 bottles). Finally it tastes much better than a Krugerrand.


I would be interested in your opinion. Thank you.
Michael

[Derek T.]

Michael,

My view is that top grade VP (like the 2003's you mention) is priced way too high at the time it is released. In the past I have stated them to be vastly overpriced. I do not buy or drink French wine so cannot compare the top quality French wines with top quality VP. However, I would be very surprised if the relative quality of each was not about the same. This is based on the fact that both trades have a long established history and the top producers are rarely if ever beaten when it come to producing their best wines. I think the skills displayed in both regions must be equally high and the grapes of equally great quality in relation to the end product. So, my assumption is that top class VP is every bit as good as top class Bordeaux.

This being the case, I consider the price of Bordeaux to be simply ridiculous. According to an article I read last month most of the top grade Bordeaux produced in the last few years will never see a corkscrew and is simply being cellared for long term investment. This can only last so long as the investors will one day find that they have millions of gallons of vinegar that has no value whatsoever.

Much has been written about investing in port but I don't think it is something that would give much return in the long term. Better to buy with the intention of keeping until you want to drink it rather than buying to one day try to sell it.

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

Much has been written about investing in port but I don't think it is something that would give much return in the long term. Better to buy with the intention of keeping until you want to drink it rather than buying to one day try to sell it.

Wine was never meant to be an investment instrument. Port is not an investment vehicle either. If you want to invest, look to buy from A-Z:

a. Antiques
b. Bonds
c. Diamonds
d. Real Estate
e. Euros
f. Furs
g. Gold
h. Other precious gems
i. Sports paraphenalia
j. Stocks
k. Antique cars
l. Luxury yachts
m. Mutual Funds
n. Pyramid schemes
o. Old baseball cards
p. Persian rugs
q. Pork bellies
r. REITs
s. Stamps
t. Oil reserves
u. US$
v. First of State quarters
w. First edition books
x. Pick your favorite artists' work
y. Coins
z. Zoo animals

I have compared Bordeaux to Port for many years, to show the relative imbalance of their worth, in the same way I've compared Port to people to show their relative similarities in aging curves.

My best example is picking three first growth Bdx from possibly the greatest 20th century vintage ... 1961. Take Lafite, Latour and Haut Brion for example. These are 3 top notch producers from arguably the the greatest vintage as mentioned. Compare their prices to an equally fabulous vintage circa 40 years ago from the Douro and 1963 comes to mind (for investment discussion purposes). Then choose Taylor, Fonseca and Grahams. I'll let you do the math ... but it is clear that the aforementioned Vintage Ports at a fraction of the cost of Bordeaux ... is a relative bargain.

You can do a similar exercise from the exalted 2000 vintage for Bdx v. VP if you need a more recent example for comparison sake. Either way, Vintage Port's pricing seems to be ridiculously low. I am not comparing the innate quality of the two wine types ... just their value.

That is why I question those who continue to gripe about the prices of the 2003 vintage. In time, the 2003s will either increase or decrease in price based on supply and demand dynamics. For those that argue that they can buy 1985s for the same price as 2003 VPs ... I say, 'go ahead' and buy the '85s if you missed them early on. But that does not mean the 2003s are not worth buying. I obviously am a contrarian, when I say that their price is not too high today, although it may certainly have seemed so upon first tranch for those that play the game.

Regardless, if you want to invest in wine (which I personally disdain ... but that is one man's opinion!) please do buy Bordeaux. There is plenty of it in comparison to Vintage Port, the prices in great vintages increase exponentially compared to Vintage Port and it is a much easier "commodity" to trade as VP is a niche player, while Bdx is quite mainstream.

[Michael M.]

To make it clear: It is not my intention at all to buy port as an investment. I buy it, because I love this noble wine. I only wondered about the prices which seems to me really decent, compared to the prices of Bordeaux' in demand.

Michael

[Derek T.]

Roy,

We have had this discussion many times now and I think we do actually agree on most of it, apart from the pricing of new release VP.

When I put forward the view that it is too high it is an argument that is isolated to it's value compared with older vintages from the same product. I have not and never will try to assess the "value" of a 2000 Bdx against a 2000 VP - it simply isn't apples and apples. Like you say, Bdx is quite obviously priced as an investment commodity whereas VP is, ar at least should be, priced as a consumer product.

The other part of my argument relates to the long term storage of the product to ensure it is in perfect condition as and when it is consumed. I think there are relatively few geeks like us who enjoy or have the means to store VP for the long term. I view this as a vlaue add hobby rather than a necessary part of enjoying the wine itself. I would suspect that most of the VP that is produced is stored professionally for most of it's life and then sold and drunk within a relatively short period. This is one of the reasons why I object to paying £50 for a bottle that is 3 years old when I can have one that has been professionaly stored for 20, 30 or 40 years at exactly the same price. Whether these new £50 bottles will cost £40 or £60 in ten years time is irrelevant. The fact is they are overpriced today and evidence of 2003 sales already seem to prove beyond doubt that the price is higher than consumers are willing to pay.

I do agree (grudgingly) that buying 2003 now will seem like a good idea to you and I in 20 years time when we want to try 20 different VP's from that year and have to fork out a small fortune to buy them. However, you and I and lots of others here are very much in the minority. Normal consumers who just want to buy a bottle and drink it (whether it is 2 years old of 50 years old) will not care how much the bottle will be worth in 20 years time because it will be gone in a week. I think it is these people who are not buying the 2003's.

ahhh, I feel better now 8)

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

To me buying wine is an investment...a PERSONNAL investment. I never buy a wine with the intent of later selling it for a profit. For me, that goes against the spirit of wine and ports. I buy wine because at some time down the road I want to enjoy that bottle. Hopefully, while sharing some great conversations and laughs with family and friends.

It bugs me that some people buy wine with the only motive to try and make some small profit down the road, thus depriving others of the enjoyment of drinking it. I think those people should be lashed with a cat-of-nine-corks :devil:

OK, enough of my

[Roy Hersh]

Andy, your motivation for Port and wine in general is well placed.

Derek, we certainly agree on the fundamentals. I might quibble about this:

I think there are relatively few geeks like us who enjoy or have the means to store VP for the long term.

It is my belief that there are LOTS more of these geeks than you and I know about. I travel around North America during the year attending and occasionally guiding Port tastings. I am always amazed by the number of serious Port geeks that I've never heard of or seen on any wine website, with very serious personal cellars that are stocked with a significant amount of well aged VPs. I only wish that there was a way to have them find FTLOP so we'd have broader groups of like minded folks here.

I am not complaining though it looks like my early predictions of 400 members and 8000+ posts at the end of the first year (July 29th) might fall just short.

[Jay Powers]

For those that argue that they can buy 1985s for the same price as 2003 VPs ... I say, 'go ahead' and buy the '85s if you missed them early on. But that does not mean the 2003s are not worth buying. I obviously am a contrarian, when I say that their price is not too high today, although it may certainly have seemed so upon first tranch for those that play the game

Well, I have been on about the relative values of 85 vs. 2003, so I should make myself clear here. I have purchased around 2.5 cases of 2003, split up among a variety of producers. So, it may be that my comments in other threads misrepresent what I actually do . But my point then has really been about relative value between vintages, and to make the point that there are a lot of good value ports out there that are ready to drink now. I was not "into" port in 1987 so could not buy them when they came out. For a latecomer, who enjoys mature port, the 1985 and 1983 vintages are a godsend, not too pricey yet but readily available and ready to drink (at least some of them).

I do not have the experience of having tasted the 85's and close vintages anywhere near their release date and therefore cannot personally conclude which is the better vintage....by all accounts the 2003 seems to be better recieved. But the time and storage to let them mature needs to be thrown on top of the selling price as suggested by Derek. I agree with Derek that the relative prices do not "make sense". But then, in a market economy, it does not need to make sense any further than that the price is worth what people will pay for it. Similar to the Bdx, if people are willing to pay high prices, then producers will charge them. As personal wealth and disposable income have gone up, and high end wine consumption has skyrocketed in the US, prices respond accordingly. As a financial investment it does not make sense, certainly not for bdx, but then probably few people on the site are planning to sell their port rather than drink it.

I would also assume that the port and bdx producers have been doing this for quite a while, and are certainly no dummys when it comes to releasing their product. Much like diamonds, if there is a relatively limited supply of a product, controled by a relatively small group of producers, those producers should be able to have at least some control over prices, both by inventory control (i.e controling the rate of release and how much is kept in the cellers) and via advertising. Again, in a market economy this is pretty normal and prices probably reflect this at least in part.

Compared to Bordeaux, Vintage Port is surely cheap . Of course another way to express that would be to say Vintage Port prices are high, and Bordeaux prices are insane :twisted: .

Jay

[Derek T.]

Jay, your last sentence sums up my thought precisely 8)

Roy, how many port geeks do you meet in everyday life away from tastings and wine forums - not many I bet. In a world with a population of many billions of people it is true that there are a large number of port and wine geeks - but we are very much a minority when compared to the number of "normal" people who just buy wine or port when they want to drink it.

Derek