Prices in America-What is happening ??

[Reidar Andersen]

I just took at a look on Broadbent wines, which I belive is Justino's and found, take only two examples:

Broadbent 1964 Boal at $ 419.95, compared with two fantasitic wines sold at RWC: 1900 Malvazia at $ 425 and the great 1900 Moscatel $ 450 !!!

Or Broadbent 1934 Verdelho at $ 747.95 while RWC selles the fantastic Serrado 1827 Boal for $ 825 ??

How is this possible ??

[Roy Hersh]

Where did you see those ridiculous prices? Go to the Broadbent website and I would imagine that you´ll see the real pricing. The prices you mentioned are clearly out of line or plain wrong. If I am the one who is wrong, I´ll chew on a cork!

Sadly, the entire time I have been here in Portugal ... I have yet to have a single glass of Madeira. But I should not complain!

[Reidar Andersen]

Hi Roy

They are from the Broadbent-wines wesite !!


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Broadbent 1978 Vintage Boal
$249.95

Broadbent 1978 Vintage Boal


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Broadbent 1978 Vintage Terrantez
$334.95

Broadbent 1978 Vintage Terrantez


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Broadbent 1964 Vintage Boal
$419.95

Broadbent 1964 Vintage Boal


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Broadbent 1954 Vintage Verdelho
$449.95

Broadbent 1954 Vintage Verdelho


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Broadbent 1940 Vintage Sercial
$662.95

Broadbent 1940 Vintage Sercial


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Broadbent 1934 Verdelho
$747.95

Broadbent 1934 Verdelho


Reidar

[Andy Velebil]

WOW Those are some outrageous prices. I checked the web site for myself and the prices are out of this world. The only thing close to retail was the 10 year old Malmsey at $43.95, the 3 and 5 years, and the rainwaters. All the rest are WAY over priced.

Anyone know why Broadbent is selling them at these crazy prices

Roy...you better get a good cork

[Reidar Andersen]

Yeah, Roy, but if you get a Broadbent 1934 Verdelho at $ 747.95 it must be a good cork !!

But seriously .

This is precisely what shocked me , it is on Broadbent-Wines website !!

Most madeira enthusiasts have a keen sense of the value of the wine. So how many fools around are willing to pay so much for name-brand which in this case is Justino Henriques . And I have never seen anything than average reviews about their wines.

Also I have a fair idea what the wholesale prices to retailers are f.o.b Funchal . Then one get cold shivers realizing it must be an enormous mark-up.

I guess that if Justino Henriques finds this out, they will instantly change importer in the US!!

Reidar

[Roy Hersh]

I have requested a response from Bartholomew Broadbent so that he can shed some light for us.

[Bartholomew Broadbent]

Thanks for inviting me to reply. Alas, these are not mistakes and they are the result of the prices given to us by Justino's, so I hardly think they will switch importers. In any case, we own the Broadbent brand and we don't import Justino's wines. That said, let me explain a few things.

When I re-launched Madeira in America in the 1980s, I was selling 1845 Solera Madeira for $45 a bottle. I sold 300 cases to one customer alone! Back then there was plenty of it. Today it sells for $350 - $800, depending on when the retailer invested in it.

We launched our Broadbent Madeira brand in about 1998. Our 10 year Malmsey and younger blends are custom blends. My father, Michael Broadbent, went to the island to select the wines. We found Justino's were making the best wines, under their new ownership, and they have the most dynamic winemaker.

In 1999, we imported quite a lot of the 1933, 1934, 1940, 1954 and 1964 Vintage Madeiras from various varieties. We were selling these wines at very reasonable prices, but much higher than had we been able to purchase them a decade earlier.

In 2005, we went back to Justino's to re-order some of these wines. Such has been the growth of the Madeira market and natural depletions of irreplaceable wines, that when we ordered 21 cases of each, the reply was that we were crazy to think that they still had that much wine left. In the end, they agreed to give us 7 cases of each and none of the 1933. The prices were 5 times what we had paid in 1999.

There are still sources, particularly at auction, or with Madeira companies that haven't realised that they are about to run out of a wine and could sell it for a lot more. I think the Rare Wine Company has done a good job sourcing these.

At our prices, the wines are not selling and that is, frankly, the way we want it because we won't be able to get any more of the old ones. It is important that we have these wines available, even if at a high price, to show depth to our brand.

The newest vintages, such as the 1978, are also astronomically expensive because, until we re-launched Madeira in the 1980s, there was no market for Madeira and they hardly made any Vintage wine.

Some of our wines are very good value. For instance, the Terrantez that is over 50 years old sells for just $150 a bottle. It is inexpensive because we don't know when it was made [the farmer bought the property with this wine in barrel over fifty years ago and the previous owner had no record of when it was made], so by law the label can only say that it is over 10 years old.

Madeira is scarce. Vintages are even more rare. To give you an idea of this: there are several Port producers who make over a million cases of Port every year. The total production of Madeira [other than cooking Madeira to which salt is added], is just over 100,000 cs for all producers combined.

The Terrantez is extremely rare. For instance, the year before last, only 28 cs were produced on the entire island. Any wonder why this grape variety is expensive?

My advice: buy those older wines that you have seen on the market at the same prices as our younger wines. You'll regret it when you see those prices in a few years time. Those wines are under priced, ours are at current replacement market value.

Finally, other than our 1934, all of our Madeiras are less expensive than the 2005 vintage of Chateau Margaux and they make more wine than we do.

[Andy Velebil]

Mr. Broadbent,

Thank you for taking the time to expain in such detail. I believe I can speak for everyone here that it is truly appreciated that you took the time to personally respond. Your reply does shed a lot of light on the price situation. I guess sticker shock is to be expected when one is used to much lower prices. I guess I need to start putting some of my port money toward Madiera before it goes even higher.

Again, thanks for the reply.

[Reidar Andersen]

After reading Mr. Broadbent’s explanation, it is clear that my remarks and Roy’ ”ridiculous” and Andy’s”outrageous” prices still stand !!! Clearly.

I have all the current 2006 retail pricelists from Funchal’s wineshops., (anyone wants them, send a private message).

Take an example compared with Broadbent’s 1934 V at $ 735 ex. tax .

In D’Oliveiras shop a 1934 Sercial cost EUR 128 today. Reduce the VAT, and that is about EUR 109, which is at tonight’s rate $ 139.

I presume (have NO idea about D’Oliveiras wholesale prices) they will sell that to their dealers for about $ 70 if you buy in cases f.o.b. Funchal.

Compared with Broadbent 1934 V, let us say it would cost about the same wholesale. I refuse to believe that a skilled businessman like Mr. Broadbent will pay more for a Justino’s which is not ; far from, as well reputed brand as D’Oliveira’s ??

If we add $ 10 pr. bottle for freight, removing old paint on the bottles and repainting, we will end up to about $ 80 pr. bottle into US plus a bit more charges which I have no idea about.

With today’s prices of $ 745 pr. bottles, it means a mark-up about 900 %, or multiplied with 9!!

10 % to Justino Henriques, 90 to Broadbent Wines. Bet Justinos's "like" this calculation ??

THIS IS NO CRITISISM, I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME IF I HAD THE CHANCE !!  I DO BUSINESS ALSO.

Or as Roy, if I am completely wrong and have to eat a cork, that means that Mr. Broadbent pays far more for the bottles into the US than I estimate here , the more reason not to buy these wines !! We still have RWC ! I use them often out of Norway.

OR instead of buying, for ex, two bottles of Broadbent 1934 V at $ 745 each, buy a ticket to Funchal, get a cozy 2-3 * hotel for a week and get a D’Oliveiras 1937 Sercial included in the package. From the US… Food extra…….

[Roy Hersh]

Reidar,

Let me be clear and upfront in case you have not read this "disclosure" before: Bartholomew is a very good friend of mine.

I can assure you that he is not making a 900% profit. He is being charged a much higher price by the producer of the proprietary bottlings his father created the blend for. Justino's clearly has very little of older stocks of Madeira left in their adega and to prevent what little is left from selling in the very near future, they have taken the "opportunity" to ensure the wines will be around for a while longer by dramatically increasing their price to Broadbent.

Having done some proprietary blends myself (in So. Africa) and importing them into the USA, I believe that in a similar type of exclusive arrangement, Broadbent may not be able to just pick up and move his lineup to another producer. Besides, D'Oliveira likely does not have much more old juice than Justino's and may only sell under their own label. This is purely speculation on my part though.

Scarcity can do strange things to pricing as anyone who buys into DeBeer's or DRC's marketing rhetoric can attest to. The difference being that there are always more diamonds to be found and DRCs to be produced. As you know, old Madeira ... especially old Vintage but also old Solera Madeira is in extremely limited supply on the island.

I am sure the pricing on the island for D'Oliveira (or through RWC) is less expensive than what Mr. Broadbent must pay for his recent bottlings of his proprietary blends, as he throughly and considerately explained. As you've read ... the re-supply is now only 84 more bottles of each wine and thereafter, there will be no more.

Knowing Bartholomew, I can tell you that he runs an honest and successful business, while going out of his way to ensure that not only his wholesale customers, but individual consumers are provided with fair pricing and excellent customer service. This is not meant as an infomercial, just as a way to attest to the fact that it is the supplier and not the importer that has raised the prices of the wines in question. I was aware that price hikes were coming and reported this well over a year ago on the eBob website, but had no idea of when they'd hit or how significant of an increase there would be.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Reidar Andersen]

Roy

First of all I have nothing against Bart Broadbent, he has given me good service before. A very nice person.

But if what he says about prices is right, I would jump of joy since I have a very big collection and then I would have been quite instantly much “richer” . Unfortunately it is not like that.

First of all, $$ has the lowest value since 1992 ( bad taste joke among friends, I call it American peso now ) , and that means a price increases of min. 30-40 % compared to 1999 due to fall in dollar.. Worse it may get. So buy now.

Of course very rare wines pre 1900 have exploded around the world, but NOT wines in plentiful stock

But if the prices have increased that much, it should have started in Funchal . That is the source for wines still in stock.

So the claimed price increases are just total nonsense, nothing more, nothing less, except for Justinos ?? But who cares about those wines anyway ?

I have a few examples here. NOTE: All prices in EUR!! I have records of prices from 2002 until 2006 ( also all the way to 2000, but then in Escudos )

FIRST HENRIQUES & HENRIQUES:

Same price 2002-2006, no changes except for 1976 Terrantez where they have reduced the price from 251, 9 in 2004 to 202 in 2006. Even “Heavenly Quartet” have no increase since 2002 !!

THEN MADEIRA WINE COMPANY, TWO EXAMPLES, GENERALLY VERY HIGH PRICES:

1908 Boal Cossart Gordon:
2002: 698,35
2003: 698,35
2004: 715
2005: 715
2006: 715

1959 Boal Blandy’s
2002: 94,80
2003: 95,00
2004: 100
2005: 100
2006: 100


PEREIRA D’OLIVEIRA (JUST ONE EXAMPLE, REST THE SAME % CHANGE)

1900 MOSCATEL
2002: 260
2003: 270
2004: 290
2005: 290
2006: 305

A close look here says that price increases is like inflation or less, except for D’Oliveira, a little bit more !!

But if Broadbent has accepted super high prices, so let it be. Most Madeira-wine collector bother too much about Justino Henriques except for when it is cheap. I have seen cases sold at auction for super low prices the past 5 years.

Now I say like TV-lawyers, “ I will rest my case “ , I will not give more comments, whatsoever.

Let us continue the forum what it is meant for, discussion about wines, not blown up prices from a certain shop !!

Reidar

[Roy Hersh]

Reidar,

Can I ask you if you have had Justino's Madeiras and if so, which ones?

So the claimed price increases are just total nonsense, nothing more, nothing less, except for Justinos ?? But who cares about those wines anyway ?

I met the current winemaker at Justino's and he is a very very talented young man. In fact, even Mr. Cossart is impressed with his competitor's winemaker ... which is saying a lot!

[Reidar Andersen]

Hi Roy,

Sorry late reply. Just been three days to France and Provence, tasting different wines than madeira .

No I have never tasted them, have one unopened 10 year Malmsey in the house, bought in Sweden.

Problem is that they are difficult to get even in Madeira ( never seen them anyplace in Europe ) , and since I am a Barbeito and D'Oliveira fan, has done no effort to find them anyway.

A special wine I still have a couple of , is 10 year old Terrantez from Blandy's. Excellent. Bought in Sweden. Mentioned in Liddell's book.

But will be in California in September, maybe I will look up some 10 year old Broadbent's and bring home.??

But I may have to keep away from his office now ??

Reidar

[Paul Day]

Regarding the quality of the Justino Henriques / Broadbent vintage wines, I have tasted a number of them, including the 1933 M, 1934 V, 1940 S, 1954 V, 1964 B, and 1978 T. Some wines are ok in my view, but that's about it, relative to other vintage wines from other producers. For example, when I opened three different bottles of the 1933 vintage a number of years ago, the JH Malmsey 1933 was my least favourite (I much preferred a Shortridge Lawton Malmsey from the MWC). More recently, tasting Broadbent 1978 Terrantez alongside the Cossart 1977 Terrantez, I preferred the Cossart, which is substantially cheaper. Of course, the 80 Euro Blandys 1975 Terrantez is another thing altogether! Note when discussing these vintage wines, we are talking about wines made some time ago, not by the current winemaker.

Even Michael Broadbent doesn't give any Justino Henriques wine 5 stars in Vintage Wine (2002) and he is perhaps the most generous of recent commentators. (In his earlier two compendia, I see MB mentions an 1880 Malmsey Solera that he scores * and a 1900 Malmsey that he gves ****, both in GVWB2, and that's it.) Liddell (1998) just mentions the 1964 Bual (***) and the 1954 Verdelho (**). Roy gives a few notes on the vintage wines on this site with a high of 94 for the 1964 Bual and low of 85 for the 1954 Verdelho. In short then, even before we talk about pricing, the well known Justino Henriques vintage wines are not exactly a line up of the finest wines of the century.

In terms of pricing, a lot of Justino Henriques wine has appeared on the international auction market in recent years and continues to show up. I think some of this came from a previous American importer. But I also have bottles of 1940 Sercial with a bottling date of 17th October 1996 with a Danish sticker on the capsule from a consignment that I know cost very little. To give a recent example, the first Christies catalogue that came to hand (22-May-2006, Sale 7314, London) had two bottle lots of each of 1933 M, 1954 V and 1964 M. These lots went for £160, 140 and 100, respectively, excluding the buyer's premium.

Regarding the situation with Terrantez, there are a number of complications, physical and financial. It is a grape that needs a lot of care, not just weekend viticulture. But if one could regularly sell Terrantez anywhere near the price of the 1978 Broadbent, I am certain that Terrantez would be in plentiful supply today.

Paul

[Catherine Reynolds]

Fortunately & unfortunately, Broadbent held back their prices for many years & the Euro finally caught up with them, causing them to nearly double their prices.

I am able to sell the two Broadbent madeiras you mentioned for less than the prices on your note (64 Bual for $383, $681 for the 34 Verdelho) but they are substantially pricier than some of the D'Oliveiras & Barbeitos from RWC.

The problem is that *all* old madeiras are going up as the supply dwindles... I often pay nearly the old retail price just to restock bottles for our store!

[Roy Hersh]

Wow, am I seeing things?

Welcome Catherine. If you took the time to read through this entire FORUM you would see your name, and store contact information mentioned MANY times.

I am very pleased that you took a moment to stop by and grace us with your presence and "in the biz" 8) knowledge. I have not figured out your new shop's location/address and phone number, so please do feel free to post it here.

Anytime, you'd like to include your monthly offerings in the Port & Madeira Marketplace (also include your phone number there, if you do post) please feel free to do so. I know that there are plenty of local Seattle folks that are either members of the Forum, and many more that just lurk and have not signed up.

Have a great summer if I don't see you sooner rather than later!

[Paul Day]

Currently, there are six exporting companies in Madeira: Justino Henriques, Madeira Wine Company, Henriques & Henriques, Barbeito, Borges and d'Oliveira. That's it. (Barros e Sousa are essentially a small concern only purchasing 3 tonnes or so of grapes a year with a few sales in mainland Portugal; a tiny bit of grower Jardim Fernandes' wine has surfaced away from the Island.) Does anyone know of anything else available aside from producers who no longer exist or various brands produced by the companies listed (e.g., Cossart Gordon, Blandys, Miles, Leacock from MWC or Broadbent from JH)?

I understand that Justino Henriques has now overtaken MWC in recent years to become the largest producer on the Island. If I were in charge at JH, I might want to preserve my limited remaining stocks of older vintage wines: economically, they are irrelevant in terms of sales, but relevant as expensive and "rare" items to offer journalists, to add prestige to the list and so on.

MWC has significantly raised the price of their 1908 Bual relative to their other offerings: they don't need to sell it, but they want something old to remain on their list in the Blandy Wine Lodge.

Those producers with limited stocks of vintage wines suffer somewhat to catch the press' attention, no matter how great their younger wines: even Liddell writes

"[Barros e Sousa] do not have much really old wine for sale - which in my opinion is the true barometer of quality ..." (p187)

"The stock of extremely good vintage wines which Borges used to sell is unfortunately now exhausted ..." (p190)

[I note at the major tasting in London last year with all the major six producers represented, the oldest Borges vintage wine offered was from the private stock of the UK importer and hasn't been available for some years.]

On the other hand, d'Oliveira still has considerable stocks of older wines to sell (augmented by their purchase of Adegas do Torreao). The same with Barbeito: not only do they have stocks of their own, but they are the most aggressive purchaser of old stocks from small growers and stockholders; for example, the amazing recent releases of Alfonso Malvasia 1886 and Jardim Fernandes Terrantez Faja dos Padres 1950 under the Barbeito label.

While it is certainly true that stocks of older Madeiras are diminishing (unlike Romanee Conti 1929 and Mouton 1945, I hear ), the story that there won't be any within a couple of years is almost as old as the oldest wines themselves: cf. Saintsbury 1920: "I fear that the very best Madeira is, and always has been since the pre-oidium wines were exhausted, mainly a memory" (You can still buy pre-oidium 1850 from d'Oliveira and 1834 from Barbeito today!)

In short, would you buy Louis Latour Corton Charlemagne at $300 if you could buy Coche-Dury's for $60?

Paul

[Reidar Andersen]

Hi folks

Just to give a comparison I would like to inform you about madeiraprices in the state owned Norwegian Vinmonopol. ( Liquor, wine and strong beer are only sold in their stores ).

Norway has a super high cost level on everything. In the prices below is included alcoholic tax about $ 11 pr. bottle and 25 % VAT ( compared to the TINY sales tax in the US ). All prices below in USD !!


H&H 10 years M+V+S 40, 73
Blandys 10 year M 54,77
Barbeito 1981 V 63
Barbeito 1950 T ( !! ) 319 ( good supply here )
Barbeito 1910 S 217
Barbeito 1902 V 306
Barbeito 1900 M 333
Barbeito 1863 B 284
Barbeito 1834 M 330

NOTE: THIS IS NOT OLD STOCKS, THE IMPORTER, WINETAILOR, BUYS NEW SUPPLIES ALL THE TIME, AFTER DEMAND. QUICK DELIVERY FROM FUNCHAL.

So guys for the price of Broadbent 1934 V, you will get a discounted planeticket all the way from California to Norway. Stock up and get the included 25 % tax back at the airport on departure. Then the 1950 T will cost 255 and 1863 B will be 227, in a high cost country ! !!!!!!!

Reidar

[Otto Nieminen]

Hi folks

Just to give a comparison I would like to inform you about madeiraprices in the state owned Norwegian Vinmonopol. ( Liquor, wine and strong beer are only sold in their stores ).

Norway has a super high cost level on everything.

Reidar, doesn't Vinmonopolet (like our abysmal Alko) have a rule that they are allowed to make only a certain % profit on each item? IIRC this is fixed so, if they buy at a certain price, they can only add that certain amount on top - even if it is drastically cheaper than elsewhere. I thought that was the reason why many top wines are actually rather cheap in Norway - and also the reason I always "use" a Norwegian friend of mine who lives in Finland to get us some great wines for our tastings - I certainly am thankful for your monopoly :) So, you see, not everything has a super high cost!

[Reidar Andersen]

Yes they do.

But they don't import the wines. Private firms do that, they get the wines, add their profit , then the Vinmonopol add the alcoholic tax and their profit which is not big, then + 25 % VAT.

Vinmonoploet is just the only distributor in this country for liquor, wine and beer stronger than 4.75 % alcohol.

Barbeito has an importer called Winetailor. So it is up to them to add their mark-up, exactly like Broadbent wines, before it goes out on the market.