Did you like the question for the Port trade this month + SCION Discussion

[Andy Velebil]

Roy,
So here's a question. If a producer stores the same vintage of Port in a vessel, say a large glass or plastic sealed container, and uses this wine to top up the barrels each year, do you consider that refreshing or just topping up?

Simple, Tom. Instead of using a younger wine to refresh the barrel, an identical Port from another cask can be used to top it off. That would make all the difference in the world.

I'm a little confused and may be missing something. You have two barrels of the same wine. Both are evaporating at about the same rate (same size and type of barrel). Hence both are in about the same overall condition. You remove some from one and stick it into the other. So exactly how does this change the wine, or keep it fresh, in the barrel that was topped up when you're adding what is essentially wine in the same condition as to what is already there?

[Roy Hersh]

Andy,

Why are you now basing the question on switching to glass or plastic, when these old vintage dated Ports, were almost always stored in wood? I am missing the point.

Rob's question on the other hand, about the amount that would have been needed ... given the evap rate, let's call it 2% - 2.5% for discussion point ... makes a lot of sense for someone who may be a skeptic.

To answer your second question: by filling from one cask to the other, you decrease the head space in the now full pipe and therefore the concentration level will not be the same as when it had the decreased head room due to evap. Obviously, it also makes a difference how often topping off is done. If 1 or 2x per year, it is one thing. If 4x per year another entirely. If just once every few years, a horse of another color. All of these factors enter into the equation with evaporation and the profile of a vintage dated tawny aging for many years in cask. In fact, the placement of where the pipe is in the stack (bottom vs. top or 3 high) and proximity to a wall vs. center of the room, will also make a difference in how they age and the evap. rate will vary due to those and other factors too.

[Derek T.]

Above 2.5% evaporation per year, the numbers just get silly!

Evaporation in the Douro, especially over the period being discussed where temperature control is such a new phenomenon as to be negligible, is likely to be in the region of 4%.

Roy, I really don't understand how you can be so adamant that any port of the age being discussed has never been refreshed with younger juice. Refreshing tawny ports with younger wines was common and accepted practice for centuries. The paranoia of "is it what it says on the label?" is a very, very modern thing in comparison to the wines we are discussing. In the middle of the 19th century anyone who did not refresh their casks with some younger wine would probably have been considered to be insane!

I have tasted both Scion and the wine that Andy mentioned. Both were great wines. I really, really, really don't care whether or not either or both contain a proportion of younger wines that were added through the ages to compensate for the angel's share. Bhe fact is that both of them probably do because that is how tawny ports were made in those days. If Taylor Fladgate believed or could reasonably claim otherwise then Scion would have 1855 on the label. But it doesn't.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

Why are you now basing the question on switching to glass or plastic, when these old vintage dated Ports, were almost always stored in wood? I am missing the point.

Actually, Im not switching things, it's a simple question as to how you would classify a Port as being topped up or refreshed in this case.

Rob's question on the other hand, about the amount that would have been needed ... given the evap rate, let's call it 2% - 2.5% for discussion point ... makes a lot of sense for someone who may be skeptical.

Yes a very good question. I figured out the math on another forum, though I'm sure someone better at math may find an error or three....

Lets look at the math and you can make your own opinion. Typical Port cask is 530-630 liters (yes, a large variance as the old ones were had made and not all are the exact same size). So lets assume the barrels were 600 liters. These were stored in the Douro where evaporation rates are much higher than Gaia. So lets assume a 3% angels share each year per barrel. So your typical barrel is losing about 18 liters per year. So 18 liters/year times 155 years is 2,790 liters lost. That is per barrel. So even if you have 8 casks that are 600 liters each, total of 4,800 liters, eight barrels would have lost a total of 22,390 liters. Just a tad more than 4,800 total liters. And that assumes that one never drinks what is in the casks.

Even if you take it to a 1% angels share annually, that still 6 liters per year or 930 liters over 155 years. So eight casks would have lost a total of 7440 liters over 155 years.

To answer your second question: by filling from one cask to the other, you decrease the head space in the now full pipe and therefore the concentration level will not be the same as when it had the decreased head room due to evap. Obviously, it also makes a difference how often topping off is done. If 1 or 2x per year, it is one thing. If 4x per year another entirely. If just once every few years, a horse of another color. All of these factors enter into the equation with evaporation and the profile of a vintage dated tawny aging for many years in cask. In fact, the placement of where the pipe is in the stack (bottom vs. top or 3 high) and proximity to a wall vs. center of the room, will also make a difference in how they age and the evap. rate will vary due to those and other factors too.

Actually the concentration level will go up. Assuming the second barrel is not topped off anymore and it is used to top up the main barrel, the contents of the second barrel will increase as the level drops and evaporation takes place. Mixing the contents of the second barrel with the first will add a more concentrated wine. That won't make the first barrel fresher, rather the opposite.

As for barrel placement, yes it can have an effect. However, most cellars keep the same vintage/type of port barrels together so the temperature difference between two adjacent barrels at floor level and 6' up is negligible. Now if we're stacking them 30' high in a room with a 31' ceiling, then yes there can be a sizable temperature difference between top and bottom barrels depending on the time of year (if not actively cooled). But if were talking two barrels, sitting side by side or even on top of each other in a typical Lodge with a high ceiling, I can bet there isn't much of a temperature difference between the barrel on the bottom and a barrel sitting directly on top of it.

[Andy Velebil]

Above 2.5% evaporation per year, the numbers just get silly!

Evaporation in the Douro, especially over the period being discussed where temperature control is such a new phenomenon as to be negligible, is likely to be in the region of 4%.

Roy, I really don't understand how you can be so adamant that any port of the age being discussed has never been refreshed with younger juice. Refreshing tawny ports with younger wines was common and accepted practice for centuries. The paranoia of "is it what it says on the label?" is a very, very modern thing in comparison to the wines we are discussing. In the middle of the 19th century anyone who did not refresh their casks with some younger wine would probably have been considered to be insane!

I have tasted both Scion and the wine that Andy mentioned. Both were great wines. I really, really, really don't care whether or not either or both contain a proportion of younger wines that were added through the ages to compensate for the angel's share. Bhe fact is that both of them probably do because that is how tawny ports were made in those days. If Taylor Fladgate believed or could reasonably claim otherwise then Scion would have 1855 on the label. But it doesn't.

Was typing as Derek posted....exactly, it was common and is still done (see AQFTPT on this issue). There is no law governing what you can top up an older barrel with. I really don't care what is used to top it up so long as it's a good product in the end. But I agree with Derek...Roy, I really don't understand how you can be so adamant that any port of the age being discussed has never been refreshed with younger juice.

[Roy Hersh]

Actually, that is not necessarily accurate Derek.

One at a time though:

Roy, I really don't understand how you can be so adamant that any port of the age being discussed has never been refreshed with younger juice. Refreshing tawny ports with younger wines was common and accepted practice for centuries. The paranoia of "is it what it says on the label?" is a very, very modern thing in comparison to the wines we are discussing. In the middle of the 19th century anyone who did not refresh their casks with some younger wine would probably have been considered to be insane!

You are generalizing with the word ANY. I was not referencing ANY Port of the age, just the Scion. I also can't say for sure that it has NOT been refreshed, nobody can unless they owned the casks and had documentation as to how they were handled. Yes "refreshing" was common, but there were companies that frowned on that practice and made sure NOT to refresh with younger wines, as they felt it was "cheating" and would ONLY use topping off with the same wines, even though more expensive ... to insure the contents were kept "pure" or in another term, not mixing different vintage dated tawnies. Krohn is just one example of that mentality, but there are other companies we've visited that have said the same thing, that they did not refresh their Colheitas, simply topped them off. Others openly admit to refreshing, it is really a company by company philosophy.

At the end of the day, I could care less whether any Colheita was "refilled" by refreshing or topping off ... as long as they disclose which process they've used. The issue people have focused on with Scion from v. early on, with severe skepticism discussed on forums and in private is exactly HOW those casks were treated, or not and the questioning of its true age. Like I said earlier, having just tasted casks that were very similar in age, known to have been topped off( but not refreshed), it seemed apparent at that moment, that there were certain similar organoleptic qualities that I tasted which made me think of that ... right then and there and I said it to the group, too. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. However, for my tastes at the time, it seemed very similar in its freshness of acidity as the key factor, which was something I noted from these topped off barrels and distinctly remember noting in Scion too.


To your second point:

I have tasted both Scion and the wine that Andy mentioned. Both were great wines. I really, really, really don't care whether or not either or both contain a proportion of younger wines that were added through the ages to compensate for the angel's share. Bhe fact is that both of them probably do because that is how tawny ports were made in those days. If Taylor Fladgate believed or could reasonably claim otherwise then Scion would have 1855 on the label. But it doesn't.

Sorry Derek, I'm not sure that you are correct there my friend. I believe that there would have had to be old records authenticating the dates of the casks, and these would have had to have been recorded back in the day. It is not necessarily the method of making up the angel's share that prevented the date of 1855 from appearing. Adrian has made it clear that the casks were "from a cool Douro cellar in Prezegueda" so there goes the 4% evap theory too. If it was a cool cellar, it likely could have ranged between 1-3% and likely 2% or so, depending on where the casks were stored in that cellar. Additionally, we have heard no specific mention that there was proof of 1855 date, but from memory, 150 years old and pre-Phylloxera were mentioned quite often.

I just tried to find proof of the 1855 since writing my last sentence, and found this from Mr. Bridge: “This exceptional wine, which dates back to the time of the Crimean war, may be one of the only wines in the world to survive in faultless condition since Phylloxera ravaged the vineyards in the 1860s,” stated Bridge.

Well given that we saw several casks of 1863 (see FTLOP #70 for photo proof) and tasted the wine ... I can assure you they're not the only ones. Also, a few days after the recent Fortification Tour, I visited with another producer in Porto who let me know of a project to launch another pre-Phylloxera Colheita from a specific year that is 100% known to exist with papers and all. A limited bottling will take place later this year. All I can say is that it too, absolutely rocked and was positively not refreshed with younger Port EVER. Again, to your quote above: it is not the refreshing/topping off ... but evidence of the specific year of harvest which must be 100% beyond question, in order to have something called a Port of the Vintage, Port of the Harvest, Reserve Tawny, Single Harvest Tawny Port, Reserve ... or simply, Colheita. Obviously some of those older names no longer apply.

Fun discussion.

[Roy Hersh]

Andy,

RH is more the point than temperature, when it comes to barrel placement in a room, proximity to interior/exterior walls, open space etc.

Talk about thread drift.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

RH is more the point than temperature, when it comes to barrel placement in a room, proximity to interior/exterior walls, open space etc.

RH is affected by air density and temperature. Overall Relative Humidity in a room (or Lodge in this case) isn't going to vary much, if at all, from the ground to 1/2 way up a 25'-30' ceiling.

And yes a very good discussion

[Roy Hersh]

Actually the Scion came from a Douro quinta's cellar, albeit a cool one; not a Lodge. But your point is well taken.

[Tom Archer]

Rob,

I'm told that evaporation rates in the Douro are typically in the order of 4% p.a. and about half that in Gaia.

Roy,

If you top up with wine of the same age, you get an increasingly viscous wine that sports a green meniscus after about four decades - the Graham '52 is a good example.

If the Scion had been topped up with wine of the same age, it would now be extremely syrupy, and probably not very nice. That is clearly not the case.

Probably the best way to categorise the Scion is to call it an 1855 solera port. Although solera is not a style currently recognised as a premium port by the IVDP, I would like to see some serious soleras started.

[Gustavo Devesas]

I enjoyed it, even if a large number of the answers were the "safe" answer - the 1931 Noval Nacional. There were some gems in there, too, like Gustavo's desire to try a 1983 Nacional.

Hello Glenn,

Just a quick note - If you read it well it was not me but my brother Gonçalo that wishes to try the 1983 Nacional. To be honest I still don't know why he did choose that wine as we tasted it together last year and although it's my birth year, it's some points away from some of the others Nacional... it's definitely not my choice.

Regards,
Gustavo

[Eric Ifune]

I guess the only way to accept the argument one way or the other is how much do you trust the word of the producer. Obviously none of us were around in the pre-Phylloxera days to monitor the handling of these wines; so one must take the word of the seller if the wine has not been refreshed with a newer vintage.
One thing I've learned over the years is that each wine is an individual. They change and progress differently. I've had many ancient Madeiras, fewer Ports; and sometimes they just defy common convention of how they should taste.

One other thing, the evaporation rate is dependent on many factors. The numbers thrown around here are merely averages. Temperature, humidity, air pressure, head space within the cask, and the osmotic concentration of the contents of the cask all relate to the evaporation rate.

[Andy Velebil]

Actually the Scion came from a Douro quinta's cellar, albeit a cool one; not a Lodge. But your point is well taken.

Here's a question..exactly how cool does an old Douro Quinta cellar actually stay in the summer when it regularly hits 40+ Celsius outside? Unless you dug a big deep hole underground, which I've never seen in the Douro (excluding modern construction), I would assume quite warm. So are we really supposed to believe it was that cool of a cellar?

[Tom Archer]

The average year round temperature in the Douro will vary a bit, depending on where and how high up you are, but I don't think it's that much different to Porto, which is around 18C/64F.

Deep soil temperatures run a little higher than the average air temperature on open ground, due to the impact of direct sunlight, so I'd guess you would struggle to get a deep cellar in the Douro below 20C/70F without chillers, and to counter the summer extremes, you might need to go down 6m/20ft - possibly more.. - to get a steady temperature.

In densely built up areas, much direct sunlight is either reflected or radiated back, without impacting soil temperatures, so cellars in Gaia should be generally cooler.

The difference of course is the lack of temperature extremes on the coast, and from the point of view of evaporation, the maritime climate affords much higher humidity. I would guess that is the principal reason for the difference in evaporation losses.

[Rob C.]

I enjoyed it, even if a large number of the answers were the "safe" answer - the 1931 Noval Nacional. There were some gems in there, too, like Gustavo's desire to try a 1983 Nacional.

Hello Glenn,

Just a quick note - If you read it well it was not me but my brother Gonçalo that wishes to try the 1983 Nacional. To be honest I still don't know why he did choose that wine as we tasted it together last year and although it's my birth year, it's some points away from some of the others Nacional... it's definitely not my choice.

Regards,
Gustavo

Gustavo - you were very quick to distance yourself from this! But in fairness to Gonçalo, he wrote about wanting to try the 1963 Nacional. Oscar was the one to put down the 83 (birth year).

Anyway - now having read the article, some interesting stuff. Was that Rupert Symington taking a pot shot at the supposed authenticity of the many NN31s floating about...?!

[Andy Velebil]

The average year round temperature in the Douro will vary a bit, depending on where and how high up you are, but I don't think it's that much different to Porto, which is around 18C/64F.

Deep soil temperatures run a little higher than the average air temperature on open ground, due to the impact of direct sunlight, so I'd guess you would struggle to get a deep cellar in the Douro below 20C/70F without chillers, and to counter the summer extremes, you might need to go down 6m/20ft - possibly more.. - to get a steady temperature.

Averages may be similar, but it's the extremes in the Douro that are far greater and will cause issues. Very hot in summer and very cold in winter. Obviously hot being the big issue.

Digging a large cellar size 20' or deeper hole in schist/granite soil, deep enough to maintain a stable cool temperature year round, isn't exactly an easy or cheap thing to do. Probably why one doesn't see any old underground cellars in the Douro.

[Andy Velebil]

Anyway - now having read the article, some interesting stuff. Was that Rupert Symington taking a pot shot at the supposed authenticity of the many NN31s floating about...?!

Good catch Rob, I saw that as well.

Here's an interesting tid-bit. Nacional was never commercially sold until the mid 1980's. It was always a "give-away" Port. If someone bought "X" amount of the regular cuvee you would be given a certain amount of the Nacional as a thank you. It wasn't sold commercially until Christiano Van Zellar took over running Noval in the mid 80's and he decided to start selling it along with the regular cuvee.

Since the fire at the Lodge destroyed most of the old records we'll never know exactly how much was really produced of this old Port. But I'm sure it's safe to assume there wasn't a ton made given the small size of the plot, it being such young vines (though they produce more grapes per vine when young one must be more careful on the sorting table to weed out non-quality berries), and considering it was a "give-away" Port back then.

[Tom D.]

Rob,

If the Scion had been topped up with wine of the same age, it would now be extremely syrupy, and probably not very nice. That is clearly not the case.

I can't square this logic with what TFP are saying. The implication of what you are saying, if correct, is that TFP are being deliberately deceptive. TFP openly says the wine has probably been topped up, but they also plainly imply it has not been topped up since the 19th century. If that is the case, it was still well over 100 years in cask after last being topped up, so your syrup logic and the evaporation mathematics being tossed around here would still seem to apply. But the Scion is not especially syrupy (our bottle did in fact show a yellow-green edge).

I have almost no experience tasting cask-aged wines 150+ years old, which you apparently do have, so I will defer to your judgment as to how syrupy such wines usually are. But I've tasted wines of all types up to about 100 years old, and I would find it very hard to believe there is anything in that Scion that is less than 100 years old. So based on that, I would tend to have no problem believing the TFP story. But I am at a loss to square it with what you are saying here, which I assume is also accurate. I really do not believe both can be correct. So I am left confused...

??????

[Adrian Bridge]

Scion

There are several issues being raised about Scion that need to be discussed and I will try to cover the points as I see them a) the history of the wine b) the question of topping up and refreshing c) the evaporation rates d) the technical specifications of Scion and e) aging potential.

We purchased the Ports that went into Scion from a family who have owned and operated in the Douro for many generations. The farm where the Port was stored is in Prezegueda, which is alongside the Corgo river valley and therefore in a cooler, wetter part of the Douro.

The family had stored the wine in the same location since it was made. There were two sisters who did divide this old wine a number of years ago and we understand that another Port shipper purchased the other sister’s wine some 8 to 10 years ago and used it in blending their 30 year old.

We were shown family records and we believed this to be a genuine Port from 1855. We had it tested by the IVDP to obtain their opinion as to the age of the wine.

The Port was held in 6 casks and had not been moved for over 20 years. The casks were ullaged and we took sufficient to make the 1,100 liters that we purchased. Therefore, Scion is a blend of the same wine held in different casks.

The loading process was accompanied by our head wine maker – David Guimaraens and another of our winemakers Manuel Aranha and a photo record was made – see annex 1.
We cannot say that the wine was not topped up as it is logical that the wines could have been to reduce the ullage. This is a normal process and records may not always be kept. However, we can be fairly certain that the wine was not refreshed – younger Port placed in it – as this would show up on the technical analysis of the residues. Equally, we can be certain that the wine was not moved often as it has a very low lead level – 208 parts per billion. Lead is collected in wine when moved through brass fittings and old ports often have lead levels much higher than this. (Before anyone gets excited we know that this is over the current legal limit but exceptions are made for very old Ports).

The question over evaporation is interesting, but the posts that have been made assume that evaporation is a linear function that can simply be compounded. This is not the case. Ports will evaporate more in early years and then will reach a level of stabilization where the evaporation will drop to a very low level. This is particularly so of Ports that are not moved. The level of sugar does increase as does the total acidity – see below.

There is an error being made that aging in the Douro will always produce a Douro bake – as in the case of Graham 1952. This is not always so and does depend on the conditions of the storeage. We have made the statement many times that had Scion been aged only a few miles further east, or in a south facing winery, or a windier location it would not be what it is. Indeed, historic buildings often had very good natural temperature control that is now required to be replicated with technology in thin walled buildings.

We very often see old Ports and we buy them for blending. They are normally not suitable to be bottled alone. Our technical area did originally propose the purchase of these Ports for blending. However, I suggested that we make a special bottling because the Port was so balanced and so exceptional. We had never done something like that before and may never do so again.

The second point on evaporation is that people have referred to Madeira. On that island they store their wines in heated lodges to encourage oxidation – by the logic of some contributors to the thread they would quickly have none left if temperature was the only factor.

Finally the analysis of Scion shows it to be a Port of great age and, we believe from 1855 as the family records indicate. We cannot make that age statement on the bottle because to sell a colheita the Port must be registered with the IVDP. The fact that the IVDP did not exist in 1855 would have made that hard but the requirement to register was even later. That is why it is sold as ‘over 40’ from the formal special category registrations within the IVDP but they allow it to be labeled as ‘very old’.

Scion has 189 grams per liter of residual sugar, 8.76 grams per liter acidity expressed in Tartaric acid and a Baume of 8.9. the compares with Taylor 40 year old that has 134 grams per liter of residual sugar, 5.2 grams per liter acidity expressed in Tartaric acid and a Baume of 5.2. The high acidity is achieved over time and is what provides the balance to the relatively high residual sugar in Scion.

Taylor’s Scion is an extraordinary Port that has been aged in cask in the Douro since 1855 until we bought it and bottled it. As such the bottling process will have had an impact on Scion. For this reason we cannot be certain how long it will last in the bottle and what it will be like in 10 or 20 years. Our experience does suggest that, like any Aged Tawny, it will not improve greatly in a bottle. Once it has been opened it will certainly last for a number of weeks if not months.

Scion is a remarkable Port and although we did not make it, the team at Taylor’s is very proud to have brought it to the market. We have done so based on a very thorough due diligence. For those people who want to taste it, and were not able to buy a bottle, they can purchase it by the glass at the Taylor visitors’ centre in Vila Nova de Gaia or at Dick’s Bar at The Yeatman.

Adrian Bridge, 4th July 2012


Annex 1

Location of the farm and lodge.

The house and lodge.

Inside the lodge

A cask of Scion

Loading with sampled being drawn off for David Guimaraens

David Guimaraens tasting during loading

A glass of Scion on the original cask.

[Adrian Bridge]

It would appear that the photos have not come out - I have sent them to Roy.

Subsequently to my writing this several other points have been made. Tom is comparing Scion to Grahams 1952 and assuming that Grahams was aged in Gaia therefore Scion aged in the Douro must be more concentrated. If fact Graham 1952 shows all the hallmarks of Douro Bake and aging in a hot part of the Douro.

The question over cellars also seems to miss the point. Old houses in the Douro are constructed with thick walls and small windows - this keeps them cool in Summer and stops heat loss in Winter. Most commentators are thinking of modern construction. The location that Scion was stored was in a lodge under a house where all the walls bar the west facing front are underground. The construction is schist and earth floor. The narrowest aspect of the house is south facing. This is damp and cool and in the lower part of the valley where rainfall is higher and it is cooler. The fact that it was built into a hill will have ensured humidity all year from the ground water.

Yes, it does get to 40 degrees on some days in the Douro but be careful not to extrapolate from the specifi to the general. We get 10 days at most in Vargellas each year at that temperature but that is 80 km further East. I have some great charts on rainfall and temperature but I cannot post them here - though happy to send them.

On a final point in Madeira they heat the lodges but it does not all evaporate away due to high humidity even over hundreds of years.

Best wishes, Adrian