Did you like the question for the Port trade this month + SCION Discussion

[Tom D.]

Mr. Bridge,

While it was entertaining to read the speculation and opinions expressed by others here on this matter, I will accept your statement as definitive.

Thank you very much!

[Glenn E.]

I enjoyed it, even if a large number of the answers were the "safe" answer - the 1931 Noval Nacional. There were some gems in there, too, like Gustavo's desire to try a 1983 Nacional.

Hello Glenn,

Just a quick note - If you read it well it was not me but my brother Gonçalo that wishes to try the 1983 Nacional. To be honest I still don't know why he did choose that wine as we tasted it together last year and although it's my birth year, it's some points away from some of the others Nacional... it's definitely not my choice.

Regards,
Gustavo

Gustavo - you were very quick to distance yourself from this! But in fairness to Gonçalo, he wrote about wanting to try the 1963 Nacional. Oscar was the one to put down the 83 (birth year).

Gah! I sure managed to misread everyone's selections, didn't I? I can't believe I mixed up two of my favorite guys in the Port trade. Arrgh!

Sorry about that, Gustavo!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Andy Velebil]

The question over evaporation is interesting but the posts that have been made assume that evaporation is a linear function that can simply be compounded. This is not the case. Ports will evaporate more in early years and then will reach a level of stabilization where the evaporation will drop to a very low level. This is particularly so of Ports that are not moved.

Adrian,

Many thanks for clarifying a number of things surrounding this Port (and other techincal issues). As you can imagine the topic of old Tawny's and how they are cared for is quite the interesting topic for us. One with a lot of confusion surrounding them and Scion just happens to make a good (or rather easier) exemplar to use when discussing them.

The question over evaporation is interesting, but the posts that have been made assume that evaporation is a linear function that can simply be compounded. This is not the case. Ports will evaporate more in early years and then will reach a level of stabilization where the evaporation will drop to a very low level. This is particularly so of Ports that are not moved. The level of sugar does increase as does the total acidity – see below.

Interesting, something I've not heard before but makes sense. Obviously there is no hard fast time line, but can you give an approximate age when the evaporation really starts to slow down? Again, not looking for a hard answer as there are probably too many factors to consider, just a general time frame based on your experience and observations.

Equally, we can be certain that the wine was not moved often as it has a very low lead level – 208 parts per billion. Lead is collected in wine when moved through brass fittings and old ports often have lead levels much higher than this. (Before anyone gets excited we know that this is over the current legal limit but exceptions are made for very old Ports).

You get us all calm and on the right path finally and then you go and start trying to stir the pot

[Roy Hersh]

Thanks for the clarification Adrian.

I think everyone and I do mean EVERYONE who participated in this thread to this point, on the Scion topic(s) ... used common sense and partial knowledge to further their points, often mistakenly. Learning the truth is very refreshing and your participation in setting the record straight, once and for all, will go a long way to help change lots of wrong impressions and misunderstandings of the reality surrounding Scion once and for all -- as well as other Ports. The context and facts you bring to light are truly appreciated.

I will get your photos loaded here asap.

Thanks again for providing the facts!

[Derek T.]

Adrian,

Thanks for the very detailed response, which is very much appreciated.

My particular interest in this debate is on the subject of refreshing v topping-up. The reason for that is that I have read many books, lots of which were written by Port producers or members of the wine trade, that clearly state that refreshing was widespread common practise until at least WWII. Give that vintage dated tawny / colheita ports are a relatively recent phenomenon I am struggling to see what the motivation would have been for a producer to maintain stocks of pure vintage tawny in the second half of the 19th century. However, I accept that that doesn't mean it didn't happen occasionally.

What are the tests that the IVDP carry out to pin down the age of a wine?

If the test is considered to be within a reasonable degree of accuracy one would think that true Colheitas which pre-date the registration process could be certified in some way to allow them to be sold as vintage dated ports provided there was sufficient documentation from the source to help justify a claim.

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

Derek mentioned:

Give that vintage dated tawny / colheita ports are a relatively recent phenomenon

Two centuries ago these wines were being produced (certainly 1815), I guess we have differing views on what is a "relatively recent phenomenon."

[Derek T.]

Derek mentioned:

Give that vintage dated tawny / colheita ports are a relatively recent phenomenon

Two centuries ago these wines were being produced (certainly 1815), I guess we have differing views on what is a "relatively recent phenomenon."

Perhaps that's because you live in a country with a relatively
modern history?

Happy 4th of July!

[Eric Ifune]

Mr. Bridge,
Thank you for the explanation.
Happy 4th of July from the States!


Talk about thread drift!

[Derek T.]

Derek mentioned:

Give that vintage dated tawny / colheita ports are a relatively recent phenomenon

Two centuries ago these wines were being produced (certainly 1815)

I have seen bottles of Port that were bottled around that time but these are what evolved into what we know now as Vintage Ports. Many of these would have been bottled at 2, 3, 4, 5 years but at that time the concept of a two/three year bottling rule didn't exist so i think these are different to the wines being discussed here as they were specifically intended to be bottle aged.

But I have never seen a bottle (nor reference to one in the many thousands of cellar records and price lists I have examined) from the 19th century that contained a vintage dated wine that had been aged in cask for a few decades before being bottled. That style is "relatively recent". So, if you are producing Port in the mid 1800s that is intended to be a tawny port why would you not follow the common and accepted method of chucking a few pints of new juice in each year to keep it topped-up and fresh?

[Adrian Bridge]

Andy I made the point about lead levels for you as California has led the way on lead levels - not stirring just trying to head off a red herring on the subject of lead.

The first 20 years will see more evaporation but this does depend on how often a wine is moved or racked. Let me give you an example. If we have a wine from a big year that is destined for 10 year old we may need to do an oxidise racking twice in a year. Such a racking involves empting into an open vessel where losses are incurred through splashes, pumping down pipes to a vat and the lees in the cask. It is done by humans so it is not a science.

Consider this. If you place an open jar of water next to an open jar of treacle in your house. You return one month later. The water may have gone but has the treacle? Clearly not as viscocity plays a part. So older sweeter, more viscous Ports will evaporate less. Try it and see.

Again the tests will give you an idea about a wine but are not printed in a hand book as a set of scales so that a particular total acid level coupled with residual sugars and other residues will tell you the exact age. Remember we are dealing with a wine that comes from a different harvest each year, ages in different climatic conditions ( even in the same lodge) as each year is different. This is why the tests carried out could not be used to prove an exact year but a general sense of age. Other papers might support a more exact date but still would not probably serve to provide a precise prove required for a colheita registration.

It is these annual variations that make the art of blending so important and exciting. Every year a different harvest, every year a different climate yet a consistant product is required at the end - such a Taylor 20 year old. Blenders work hard in the Port industry.

Whilst looking at this point it allows me to illustrate that blenders will refresh the wines - sometimes with younger and sometimes with older wines to achieve the desired, and expected, style. This is the art. This does not mean that it has to be extrapolated accross to other Ports such as a colheita.

Historically, in a big (or good) harvest Douro families put wine aside. It worked like a bank account deposit. You paid in knowing that at a later stage you could cash out. With Scion I suspect that this was the original motive - something set aside for a rainy day. As it aged it was not sold until it reached the point that it became an heirloom. I firmly believe that if the family had not died out it would not have been sold. They did and we made Scion.

Best wishes, Adrian

[Andy Velebil]

Andy I made the point about lead levels for you as California has led the way on lead levels - not stirring just trying to head off a red herring on the subject of lead.

IIRC, I thought Canada made an issue of this not to long ago. Has the U.S. Authorities been making an issue of the lead levels recently?

[Derek T.]

We cannot say that the wine was not topped up as it is logical that the wines could have been to reduce the ullage. This is a normal process and records may not always be kept. However, we can be fairly certain that the wine was not refreshed – younger Port placed in it – as this would show up on the technical analysis of the residues.

Again the tests will give you an idea about a wine but are not printed in a hand book as a set of scales so that a particular total acid level coupled with residual sugars and other residues will tell you the exact age. Remember we are dealing with a wine that comes from a different harvest each year, ages in different climatic conditions ( even in the same lodge) as each year is different. This is why the tests carried out could not be used to prove an exact year but a general sense of age.

Adrian,

These two statements seem to be somewhat contradictory. Is it not possible that small amounts of new wine could have entered these casks during the first 50 years (which would have been normal then) but the other variables conspire to convince the analysts that this is a wine from an era consistent with the documentary evidence? That being so, how can anyone be certain that this wine was never refreshed?

Derek

[Glenn E.]

Derek mentioned:

Give that vintage dated tawny / colheita ports are a relatively recent phenomenon

Two centuries ago these wines were being produced (certainly 1815), I guess we have differing views on what is a "relatively recent phenomenon."

Perhaps that's because you live in a country with a relatively
modern history?

Happy 4th of July!

In America, 100 years is a long time.

In Europe, 100 miles is a long ways.

[Andy Velebil]

Perhaps that's because you live in a country with a relatively
modern history?

Happy 4th of July!

In America, 100 years is a long time.

In Europe, 100 miles is a long ways.

[Carl D]

I will get your photos loaded here asap.

Any update on those photos?

[Roy Hersh]

Sorry this took so long and thank you to Adrian and TFP team for sending this to me. I must admit, this is the very first time in the seven years FTLOP's Forum exists that I've ever uploaded a photo to a post. Special thanks to Glenn Elliott for his assistance in educating this techno-dummy.

Scion Location - map.

Scion Location - map (resized).jpg (64.25 KiB) Viewed 2512 times

[Roy Hersh]

The House & Lodge (resized).jpg (67.83 KiB) Viewed 2512 times

[Roy Hersh]

Inside the Lodge (resized).jpg (68.65 KiB) Viewed 2512 times

[Roy Hersh]

A cask of Scion (resized).jpg (72.37 KiB) Viewed 2512 times

[Roy Hersh]

Loading with sample being drawn off for David Guimaraens - (resized).jpg (72.32 KiB) Viewed 2513 times