A few questions re. old Madeira

[Jon D]

Questions for some of the experienced brethren here:

1. Does Madeira develop/change at all when in demijohns?

If it doesn't, then (as an example) a 1795 Madeira transferred to demijohns in 1895 and kept there to the present date is only really 100 years old in terms of development, is it not?

I ask this because Madeira from 1910 is now bottled straight out of barrel, 100 years of development. If Madeira doesn't develop in demijohn and/or bottle, then it is a significant premium to pay for the 1700s and 1800s Madeiras that have been sitting in demijohns for decades/centuries. (Acknowledged that these wines are pre-phylloxera etc).

2. Do older bottles of Madeira (say 100+ years old) need to be consumed soon upon opening, or can they last months/years as well?

Many thanks!

[Daniel Fraley]

Hi Jon, I'll take a stab at answering this... I'm relatively new as well, but I've reached some obsessive compulsive levels researching anything madeira. If anyone wants to correct me, I won't be hurt! On to your questions...

Does Madeira develop/change at all when in demijohns?

"While a vintage madeira in a demijohn is not taking on additional wood or being exposed to as much yearly evaporation, it nonetheless develops and changes in the demijohn. A classic example of this is D'Oliveira's stock... D'Oliveira bottles on-demand from cask and demijohn. Often you'll read vastly different tasting notes from a 2008 bottling vs a 2012 bottling. The 1937 D'Oliveira Sercial for instance was a little punky, (or so I've read) after it was pulled from 70 years in oak, then developed quite nicely in the demijohn between bottlings."

Do older bottles of Madeira (say 100+ years old) need to be consumed soon upon opening, or can they last months/years as well?

"I've wondered about this as well because I've read contrary reports... 99% confident though that even a 100+ year madeira will keep fine for months (or longer) in a decanter. I flip to http://www.madeirawineguide.com/ periodically for tasting notes and read even 1795's with seepage and cork deterioration (aka exposure to some oxygen) are still drinking magnificently"

Hope this helps!

[Eric Menchen]

A demijohn is like a giant bottle. With greater thermal mass it should be subject to less temperature variation than a smaller bottle if there are exterior temperature fluctuations. And if properly capped, there should be less air exchange than with a barrel (huge air exchange) or a 750 ml bottle (small air exchange through cork/seal). So while it might age more slowly than a wine in a barrel or a smaller bottle, I don't think we can claim it won't age at all. And of course even if it were hermetically sealed, there are still things that can happen in a bottle over time (sediment settles out, some reactions take place, etc.).

[Eric Ifune]

Madeira ages in glass, albert very slowly. Some demijohns are only lightly stoppered. In turn of the century America, many Madeira mavens didn't even stopper their demijohns. They just put a layer of fabric over the top to keep the insects out. These will show more development.
Madeira will change very slowly in bottle. Mannie Berk calls these bottle aged Madeira and after many decades have a more ethreal and less overt fruity quality. They do need more decant time, however, to get used to the oxygen again.
At the Terrantez tasting in NYC last year, we had an 1846 Borges which was bottled in 1900. It was fabulous.

[Jon D]

Daniel, Eric & Eric, thanks for the answers re. demijohns.

Anyone else able to chime in re:
"Do older bottles of Madeira (say 100+ years old) need to be consumed soon upon opening, or can they last months/years as well?"

[Mark L]

In my opinion, there are two parts (albeit related to each other) to the latter question...

1) Simply: Yes, I think old madeira can last for months / years after opening. It loves air, which brings me to ...

2) In fact, I think old madeira absolutely NEEDS a longer period of decanting. If you are popping and pouring, you'll find changes and evolution in the glass as you drink and over the course of the evening... but it's not because it's reacting to the oxygen with quite the same end result as other wines. As we know, with other wines (to be generic, for a moment), exposure to oxygen shall continue to change the wine at a decent rate, which prompts most consumers to drink it quickly over the next day or two - because presumably after that, it will have long past its peak, the air having affected it 'too much.' (it's all a matter of taste, of course)

HOWEVER, madeira LOVES oxygen and exposure to air. Being cooped up in a bottle for decades actually gives it a sort of 'madeira bottle funk' .... After opening and decanting/pouring, the madeira finally gets to stretch its legs and get going (hence the changes in glass). Only after potentially several DAYS of decanting (depending on how long it has been in bottle -- perhaps start with a day to decant, then add an extra day-per-decade-in-bottle?... at least!) THEN the madeira will start to show its true colors and can STAY this way for months perhaps years (if you can keep yourself from drinking it!)

It's why how organizing ancient madeira tastings can be so difficult (kudos to Roy for being so good at it), because ideally the wines are sent to the location many days if not a couple weeks in advance in order to decant for several days prior to pouring (and even that is after allowing the bottle to rest after travel). Popping and pouring really doesn't do old madeira much if any long term justice... Honestly, if you are opening a bottle that was bottled in the first part of the century, or even the 60s, you might find it tastes much better a month or two later compared to just a week later.

But it's really up to what your tastebuds tell you!

(The reason for all this most probably has a lot to do with madeira wine's origins and history regarding how it was (and is) made/discovered, but I'm sure you might find all that info elsewhere on these forums and/or around the internet.)

[Glenn E.]

I'm sure I will mangle the story, so Roy will have to correct it once he has time. But he has told this story many times and it's one of my favorites.

Roy was visiting an industry friend and was taken into the tasting room to try a few glasses. As the evening wrapped up, he was offered a glass from what looked like a very interesting bottle. He wasn't given any clues as to what it was or where it came from. He tasted it and made comments, which were affirmed by the host. The host then asked Roy how long he thought the bottle had been open. Roy knows Madeira well, so knew it had to be a trick question, but couldn't tell anything from the wine in the glass so answered as honestly as he could that it had probably been open at least a couple of weeks, possibly as much as a couple of months*.

The host replied that the bottle had been open for 9 years.

Ever since first hearing that story I have had a bottle of Rare Wine Company New York Malmsey open on death row. Every once in a while I pour a small sample and enjoy. I should have written down the date when I first opened it, but I didn't. It was at least 3-4 years ago and possibly 5. You'd never know from tasting the Madeira!

* note that this reply is in no way a condemnation, as this thread has shown. A couple of weeks to a couple of months is absolutely normal for old bottles of Madeira. It's like saying that middle age Colheita Port has been open for a day or two. In a way, it was the "generic" answer to the question.