Need help on price evaluation of a crate of 1985 port

manuva · Post by **manuva** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:03 am

Hi there, first post here.

I have a crate of 12 Kopke Quinta St. Luiz 1985.

I have scoured the internet for prices on it, but to no avail.

Could anyone give me a rough price of how much each bottle is worth? Or the whole crate.

Some general advice on how long this port can be kept for, and when best for drinking would also be much appreciated!

Thanks

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:56 am

Welcome to the forum!

To give you some idea, we need to know where you are in the world.

Could you access your profile and fill in a few more details?

Tom

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:40 am

OK, from your other post I gather you are in the UK.

Kopke does not have much standing in the UK - although some of the vintage ports have received good reviews - it is a name that neither the trade nor the consumer are familiar with.

I can only find two tasting notes on the '85 - one rating it highly, the other not so - so not a lot of help!

On the odd occasions that Kopke has come to auction in the UK, the prices have tended to be very low - last January, some cases of the 1994 vintage - a superb year for most vintage ports - sold for just £100/case at Christies.

Where has your case been stored for the last 20 years?

Tom

manuva · Post by **manuva** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:51 am

It has been stored in a cool and dark place, horizontally.

Yes I am from the UK - Derby and Leicester areas.

£100/case is most disspointing!

Could you perhaps shed some light on to why Kopke is not well known in the UK?

Thanks for the info & advice.

Stuart Chatfield · Post by **Stuart Chatfield** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:25 am

The UK premium/vintage market is dominated by just a handful of brands, most of which are owned by just two groups - the Fladgate/Taylor group (Taylors, Fonseca, Croft etc.) and the Symington Group (that has Grahams, Warre and Dow). Add Cockburns and Sandeman and there you have about 95% of what is on offer here!

Reason being, a large chunk of the port houses were set up between the 17th and 19th centuries by ex-pat British traders who sent the produce back here for bottling. Those brands evolved in to the "British ones" and our tastes with it.

There is some good grounding - those two big entities have a reputation for quality, but it has meant that some very good non-UK ones (like Niepoort) have been badly neglected, despite being excellent.

Therefore partly quality, but also habit, taste and history.

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:45 pm

If you took the case to the continent, and put it in an auction in the Netherlands or Germany, you might get a better price, but the hassle of organising that is considerable, and I'm not sure if there are local laws regarding labelling that your bottles might fall foul of - many countries have their own little rules in that regard.

Have you thought about opening a bottle?

You might get a taste for it...

Tom

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:19 pm

manuva,

It would be nice if you could re-visit your profile and add your name.

Now then, this thread has struck a nerve, so here goes

I agree with what Stuart and Tom have said here. You are basically a victim of good old British parochialism :? - It's much the same as the problem you have when you go to Spain on holiday and find that all the Brits want egg and chips or roast beef and Yorkshire pudding rather than some nice local produce. It's that "you wouldn't want to eat that foriegn muck" syndrome - it makes my blood boil :x :x :x :x :x

The 10 or so most popular brands of port in the UK all have British roots in their owneship going back 2 to 3 hundred years. There are 2 "foriegners" in the mix - Noval and Fonseca - the first is arguably the best known of all port producers and the latter is owned by a "British" company. However, neither of these have managed to attain the same shelf space as names like Graham's, Sandeman, Cockburn, Dow or Taylor's, despite being as good if not better than all of them.

I have never met any of them (although I will in 4 weeks time 8) ) but I am sure that this disease is not down to the shippers themselves. I am quite sure all of those "ex-pats" are more Portugues than British in their outlook. It is the sad consumers in the UK that have perpetuated the old Empire like bias towards familiar sounding names. If you look in all the popular supermarkets in the UK all you normally see on the shelf is Taylor, Graham's or Dow's SQVP at around £22 a bottle - you have to ask yourself why they aren't stocking Kopke 1985 if, as Tom suggests, it has a value of around £8

. The truth has nothing to do with the quality of the wine. It's just that British consumers will not buy port with a funny name, even at £8, unless they know enough about it not to care.

You can test out this theory by using http://www.wine-searcher.com - try looking for Kopke 1985 and see how many UK merchants stock it, there are none today but a great many in Portugal, France and the Netherlands. (prices ranging from £19 to £48 per bottle). Then try typing in Graham's, Warre's, Dow's or Taylor's 1985 and see the difference. Dozens of British merchants but still lots of others from around the world. How sad are we

The only time I have seen Kopke VP for sale in the UK was in the Heathrow airport duty free shop. Obviously they have plenty of open-minded non-Brits passing through there who would lift it off the shelf.

I can't help thinking we miss out on some great ports here, especially when I see some of the tasting notes posted from the guys in the USA, Canada and Europe. I wish I could walk into Tesco or Thresher's and buy a Ferriera, Niepoort, Quinta do Passadouro, Burmester, Calem, Martinez, Royal Oporto, Quinta do Crasto, Delaforce, Gonzalez Byass, Offley Boa Vista, Pocas, Rabello Valente, Ramos Pinto or Kopke - but I can't I probably never will

:x

I think you should drink your case over the next 10 years and feel smug that almost no one else in the UK has tasted or heard of it 8)

Ahhh, that's better now it's out

Derek

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:34 pm

Derek,

Bit weird that you mentioned Gonzalez Byass (a former shipper so rarely mentioned..) - I have some bottles of the '70 and was thinking of a test drive..

Also have some Kopke '70...

OK, no use of the poll tool this time -

First two votes in favour of one or the other gets into the decanter -

Kopke '70 or Gonzalez Byass '70

- Which one?

Tom

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:25 pm

Gonzalez Byass '70

Never heard of it, so this is my pick.

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:42 pm

Gonzalez Byass from me as well. There you go, decision made.

While Derek is right about not being able to walk into Tesco or Threshers and buy a bottle of Ferriera, Niepoort, Quinta do Passadouro, Burmester, Calem, Martinez, Royal Oporto, Quinta do Crasto, Delaforce, Gonzalez Byass, Offley Boa Vista, Pocas, Rabello Valente, Ramos Pinto or Kopke. I have seen these for sale in the UK, some of them easy to get hold of:
- Ferriera - wine shop in Soho (forget the name)
- Niepoort - Oddbins
- Passadouro - John Lewis
- Burmester - Berry Bros
- Calem - Sainsbury
- Martinez - older vintages frequently offered by wine merchants
- Royal Oporto - older vintages sometimes offered by wine merchants
- Crasto - Berry Bros
- Delaforce - offered by the glass in the wine bars of London!
- Gonzalez Byass - not shipped anymore
- Boa Vista - older vintages frequently offered by merchants
- Poças - I've never seen this in the UK
- Rebello Valente - not shipped anymore
- Ramos Pinto - I've never seen this in the UK
- Kopke - I've never seen this in the UK
Perhaps there's hope for us British yet. In the meantime, I hope it means that the older wines by these shippers that occasionally makes its way onto the market represents super bargains for those of us who are prepared to buy outside our "comfort zone".

Now, I wonder if I should start a poll to ask people whether Tom should be allowed to ask us to make decisions with out using the poll tool..... :?

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:30 am

Alex,

I fully accept that the great the good and the enlightened (ie - all of us on this forum

) can get hold of any of these ports in the UK if we want them because we know what they are and where to look. However, I believe that we here and others like us represent a small fraction of UK port consumption.

My point is that your average wine buying consumer (ie not a geek like you or I) is likely to go with a familiar name each year when they pick their Christmas Day port off the shelf. Just look at the amount of shelf space given over to Cockburn's Special Reserve in November/December. Given what you see coming up at auction I am quite sure that Gentelman's Clubs and educational establishments are similarly to blame. I am quite sure that for the best part of the last hundred years these establishments would not have entertained the idea of buying a case of VP with a German sounding name.

Derek

PS: I know where you can buy Ramos Pinto off the shelf

PPS: I think Tom should be made to open both bottles as punishment for breaking the voting rules

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:47 am

OK the GB70 is stood up - will probably decant late tomorrow or Saturday.

Will run another poll (properly) in a week or two

Tom

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:54 am

uncle tom wrote:OK the GB70 is stood up

An appropriate and amusing abreviation in the context of this thread, Tom