Port and tannins

[Roy Hersh]

What do you think are the key factors to tannin managment for Ports?

[Jeff G.]

usually a pretty girl to drink with

[Marc J.]

usually a pretty girl to drink with

Well...yeah that would be a plus. Another thought might involve adding some acidity which would help to balance the wine. The acidity would also help to tame those tannins and add a crisp, zesty note to the wine. Of course the use of large, older casks also reduces the proportion of wine in contact with wood and consequently lessens the level of tannins imparted by the wood.

[Moses Botbol]

After so many years in the bottle, I hardly notice the tannins, but the acidity is still around. Not sure what to think about tannins at that point???

[Al B.]

Hard to argue against Moses' point that the key way to manage tanning in vintage port is to make sure that your bottle has adequate age before you open it.

But assuming that Roy meant in newly created port, I would say that the key is to make sure that the tannins are ripe and rounded - no unripe grapes, no green stems, no crushed pips; just macerated skins from ripe fruit.

[Jeff G.]

Hard to argue against Moses' point that the key way to manage tanning in vintage port is to make sure that your bottle has adequate age before you open it.

But assuming that Roy meant in newly created port, I would say that the key is to make sure that the tannins are ripe and rounded - no unripe grapes, no green stems, no crushed pips; just macerated skins from ripe fruit.

feet stomping in the lagares

[Eric Ifune]

Timing of harvest.
The method of maceration (trod vs nontrod) and the use of presswine.
Use or nonuse of stems.

[Bradley Bogdan]

The thing that has always struck me as staggering is the amount of additional tannin that the "active" maceration of stomping or robot treading is able to extract in a rather short period of time. I never really thought about it until I tried a few imitation ports made from back sweetened dry wine, where I'd also had the dry wine in its normal form. The dry wines had all had extended macerations, a couple weeks at minimum, and had plenty of tannin, but their "port" versions seemed to lack all structure. Do producers tread more or less, depending on the level of tannin they are looking for in the vintage?

[Roy Hersh]

I would say "no" Bradley. Their goal in having grapes crushed in lagar if to maximize the extraction of color, punching down musts, and getting the most out of the grapes in terms of concentration of flavors. Tannins are rarely negatively impacted by foot treading if at all.

Another possible answer to my original question is the degree of destemming that goes on. I know there was a pretty significant difference between how wines showed blind and the philosophy of the Port winemaker when it comes to this dynamic. Some were 100% destememed, another I wrote about yesterday was 30% destemmed, while one individual crushed with 100% of the stems included in their Port. It really has a pretty significant impact based on what the Portmaker is trying to achieve.

[Bradley Bogdan]

I would say "no" Bradley. Their goal in having grapes crushed in lagar if to maximize the extraction of color, punching down musts, and getting the most out of the grapes in terms of concentration of flavors. Tannins are rarely negatively impacted by foot treading if at all.

Oh I wasn't implying that treading lowered the tannin level, but upped it, for exactly the reasons you stated, ie increased extraction. I was wondering if producers ever thought "this year, we want less extraction/tannin, because it will make a better balanced port" and so tread less.

I hadn't realized that producers regularly include stems, so I could very much believe that adjusting the level of stem inclusion would also have a huge impact in terms of tannin level/mouthfeel of tannin. Perhaps that is where a producer would say "this year is a lighter year, we will use less stems and produce a lighter, earlier drinking port"?

[Miguel Simoes]

Some were 100% destememed, another I wrote about yesterday was 30% destemmed, while one individual crushed with 100% of the stems included in their Port. It really has a pretty significant impact based on what the Portmaker is trying to achieve.

What kind of impact, would you say?

[Eric Menchen]

Of course the use of large, older casks also reduces the proportion of wine in contact with wood and consequently lessens the level of tannins imparted by the wood.

Vesuvio reports they are using the foudres (sorry, not sure of the Portugese term and its spelling) constructed with the winery in the early 1800s, and they are huge. I don't think you are getting any wood tannin out of those today.

[Jeff G.]

Some were 100% destememed, another I wrote about yesterday was 30% destemmed, while one individual crushed with 100% of the stems included in their Port. It really has a pretty significant impact based on what the Portmaker is trying to achieve.

What kind of impact, would you say?

how pretty of a girl sitting next to you would be.

too much tannins and she might be a prune.

I prefer the volumptous ones

[Roy Hersh]

Eric you are right, none actually.