Tawny Ports at the top of the category

[Roy Hersh]

http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/49521

Luis Antunes is one of the people I have lot of respect for. I got to know him a dozen years ago on another Forum, before meeting him live in the Douro last July. He knows his Port and Portuguese wines!

Any thoughts on this article?

[Paul Fountain]

I was a little surprised at the assertion that tawnies were far less popular than rubies in the US and UK. I've only consumed a little port in the UK, and I've never been to the US (might have to rectify that on my next holiday), but my assumption had always been that there would be a strong base of lower end tawny sales that underpinned to port market. I expect strong interest in Vintage port but had assumed that the TWIOA categories still sold at least as much in both markets.
The domestic PLS (Port Like Substance - to borrow the expression from Brad in recent post) production in Australia is strongly skewed towards tawny - my guess is it could be as much as 90% tawny to 10% ruby.

[John M.]

Paul Fountain » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:50 pm
I was a little surprised at the assertion that tawnies were far less popular than rubies in the US and UK. I've only consumed a little port in the UK, and I've never been to the US (might have to rectify that on my next holiday), but my assumption had always been that there would be a strong base of lower end tawny sales that underpinned to port market. I expect strong interest in Vintage port but had assumed that the TWIOA categories still sold at least as much in both markets.
The domestic PLS (Port Like Substance - to borrow the expression from Brad in recent post) production in Australia is strongly skewed towards tawny - my guess is it could be as much as 90% tawny to 10% ruby.

I kind of assumed this skew was due to the fact that the qualities of tawny are greatly influenced by the character of the wood and thus would be closer and easier to make taste like an Oporto port than to just make ruby and rely soley on the grapes (rubies seem way off the mark for these types)...but this is a guess on my part. Anyone really know why?

[Glenn E.]

I kind of assumed this skew was due to the fact that the qualities of tawny are greatly influenced by the character of the wood and thus would be closer and easier to make taste like an Oporto port than to just make ruby and rely soley on the grapes (rubies seem way off the mark for these types)...but this is a guess on my part. Anyone really know why?

Not as much as you might think. Tawny Port is aged in barrels that are, in some cases, hundreds of years old. The wood is about as characterless as it can possibly be, so the result is pretty close to just carefully oxidized Ruby Port.

I suspect that it is as difficult for a California grower to reproduce a Tawny Port as it is a Ruby Port because in most cases they simply don't have access to neutral barrels.

As far as the article goes, it doesn't surprise me. In the US, at least, we have a fascination with red wine that goes beyond just the styles of the wines. Tawny Port isn't red, so it wasn't "in fashion" until very recently. We'll see where it goes from here!

[Andy Velebil]

Not as much as you might think. Tawny Port is aged in barrels that are, in some cases, hundreds of years old. The wood is about as characterless as it can possibly be, so the result is pretty close to just carefully oxidized Ruby Port.

Hundreds?? While there are barrels over 100 years old, I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about one that is over 200 years old. If there are, I suspect there are very few of them and they are probably quite large in size. Not a size most are going to age an old tawny in. And these old barrels are constantly being cycled through and rebuilt, new or re-purposed old staves used as replacements, etc.

I suspect that it is as difficult for a California grower to reproduce a Tawny Port as it is a Ruby Port because in most cases they simply don't have access to neutral barrels.

You have totally lost me here as this is completely incorrect. An oak barrel is considered neutral after about 3 years and will continue to lose what little is left as time goes on. It is very easy to get older wood barrels in the States. And at a significantly reduced price compared to new barrels. There is a large market for these older barrels and a lot of wine makers specifically source older wine barrels as they do not want to impart the flavors or tannins from a new or young barrel.

[Glenn E.]

Not as much as you might think. Tawny Port is aged in barrels that are, in some cases, hundreds of years old. The wood is about as characterless as it can possibly be, so the result is pretty close to just carefully oxidized Ruby Port.

Hundreds?? While there are barrels over 100 years old, I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about one that is over 200 years old. If there are, I suspect there are very few of them and they are probably quite large in size. Not a size most are going to age an old tawny in. And these old barrels are constantly being cycled through and rebuilt, new or re-purposed old staves used as replacements, etc.

Well, yeah, okay. I meant 100+. :)

I suspect that it is as difficult for a California grower to reproduce a Tawny Port as it is a Ruby Port because in most cases they simply don't have access to neutral barrels.

You have totally lost me here as this is completely incorrect. An oak barrel is considered neutral after about 3 years and will continue to lose what little is left as time goes on. It is very easy to get older wood barrels in the States. And at a significantly reduced price compared to new barrels. There is a large market for these older barrels and a lot of wine makers specifically source older wine barrels as they do not want to impart the flavors or tannins from a new or young barrel.

3 years??? Well if you say so. I find that hard to believe, but I'm not nearly the wine expert that the rest of you are so I'll take your word for it.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Not as much as you might think. Tawny Port is aged in barrels that are, in some cases, hundreds of years old. The wood is about as characterless as it can possibly be, so the result is pretty close to just carefully oxidized Ruby Port.

Hundreds?? While there are barrels over 100 years old, I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about one that is over 200 years old. If there are, I suspect there are very few of them and they are probably quite large in size. Not a size most are going to age an old tawny in. And these old barrels are constantly being cycled through and rebuilt, new or re-purposed old staves used as replacements, etc.

Well, yeah, okay. I meant 100+. :)

I suspect that it is as difficult for a California grower to reproduce a Tawny Port as it is a Ruby Port because in most cases they simply don't have access to neutral barrels.

You have totally lost me here as this is completely incorrect. An oak barrel is considered neutral after about 3 years and will continue to lose what little is left as time goes on. It is very easy to get older wood barrels in the States. And at a significantly reduced price compared to new barrels. There is a large market for these older barrels and a lot of wine makers specifically source older wine barrels as they do not want to impart the flavors or tannins from a new or young barrel.

3 years??? Well if you say so. I find that hard to believe, but I'm not nearly the wine expert that the rest of you are so I'll take your word for it.

Gotta agree with Andy, wood after the first year loses most of its influence. After 3, it's about is neutral as it gets.

[Glenn E.]

Gotta agree with Andy, wood after the first year loses most of its influence. After 3, it's about is neutral as it gets.

Having created a LOT of firewood in my time, and knowing that 3-yr old firewood isn't neutral (dry, sure, but definitely not neutral), it must be the fact that the wine is removing compounds from the barrel that gets it to a neutral state that quickly.

[Eric Ifune]

With oak barrels, the entire amount of wood volume is not interacting with the wine, only the innermost portion. That's why barrels can be refurbished with shaving the inner part of the staves. One can get more oak flavors after such a procedure.
There are ancient barrels in California. As was said before, most of them are larger casks. Redwood was a common cooperage material back then as well. I would say these old tonnels, even made of redwood, would be equivilent to Tonnels in Europe made from oak, or chestnut, or even mahogany. I know Cabernet raised in these redwood casks can be superb.
I don't think fortified wines are made in the volume in California to warrent these larger casks however.
I'm wondering what kind of barrels V. Sattui uses in their solera style "Madeira?" This solera dates from the 1940's.
I know Ficklin in Madera, California has 500 liter barrels from the 1940's. They have been pushing tawny styled wines for the past several years.