Have you, or do you plan to buy any 2003 Vintage Ports?

[PStella]

Re: prices/buying old or young port--I am 21, so, for me, a lot of the pleasure is the idea of building my port collection and cellaring wines myself. I am sure that as I get older I will also try to buy more mature ports on the secondary market, but I, for one, am excited to witness my first declared vintage. Also, I agree that the provenance is important. Perhaps I am a bit neurotic, but I cannot help feeling anxious about the question of wine i buy at auction has been stored.

So far, I have bought 6 bottles of Fonseca and 6 of Croft. I am considering Noval, Vesuvio, Niepoort (if i can find it) and perhaps portal.

[Chris]

I finally made my 2003-purchases. Only some Quinta do Portal and Niepoort, a case of each. Unfortunately Fonseca, Taylors and the like are too expensiv here and out of my reach. And I think Niepoort and Portal aren't really bad ports...

[Roy Hersh]

Patrick,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is a lot of crap that is foisted on the auction market, as well as defective bottles that are known by their sellers (which to me is heresy worthy of the guillotine). You are wise to store your own Ports and the collecting and finding deals early on, is a big part of the fun and very addictive.

Your selections so far are great. Do NOT miss out on the Vesuvio!

[Roy Hersh]

Chris,

Niepoort and Portal are both excellent values in 2003. Also add to your list, the Croft which should be lower priced than many others out there and in 2003, they nailed it. Great juice!

[rmshan]

teh problem for me at age 59 is that I would definitely prefer to purchase half bottles.So far in my area only Smith Woodhouse halves have appeared for the 2003 vintage while the 97 and 94's are still available at about the prices I see quoted in searches on the 2003, though scant few in halves under any retailer.Would appreciate comments on best strategy.

[Roy Hersh]

It is funny to reread this thread after folks have now taken a different position and having tried them!

[Mike McCune]

No, I wasn't planning on getting any... then I remembered it was my daughter's birthyear! I have since purchased some of (before tasting):

Dow
Fonseca
Graham's
Taylor
Vesuvio
Roriz
Croft (after tasting)

No 2005s for me.

[Eric Duprey]

So far I've purchased single bottles Croft, Vesuvio,Quinta de Roriz, Niepoort, Fonseca and Ramos-Pinto. I want to make a case purchase soon but haven't made up my mind yet.

[windycityjim]

I think it's hard to buy a port that will outlive me and get better after I'm gone! I will try the QdV and Fonseca, both of which I bought, and will hold for 20-25 yrs (God willing).

[Roy Hersh]

Eric,

If I were in your shoes, I would wait until you return from the HARVEST TOUR, as more than likely you will be tasting quite a few 2003s. It will help you make up your decision based on your own tastes. Are you getting excited yet?

_____________________________________

Jim,

I am sure that you won't have to wait 25 years to enjoy the 2003 VPs and there are some that will drink younger than others, so take that into account when making your purchases. Besides, don't you want to be drinking excellent well-aged Vintage Ports when you are an old(er) man? I am saving some of my younger vintages like 1983/1985/1991/1992/1994 for that purpose. My daughter will inherit the really young ones and if I don't drink 'em all ... maybe a couple of older bottles too ... if she is a good girl.

[David Spriggs]

more than likely you will be tasting quite a few 2003s.

More 2003's?? Oh goodie!!

-Dave-

[*sweetstuff]

Dear Stuart,

I had a look at the New Oxford American Dictionary, Second Edition (2005), under the word 'invest', to see if they would allow the use of the word in the sense you do.

The first entry went: "(v. intransitive) expend money with the expectation of achieving profit or material results by putting it into financial schemes, shares, or property, or by using it to develop a commercial venture."

A second, informal meaning is given under invest in, meaning "buy something whose usefulness will repay the cost".

It would seem that the second, or informal, definition would apply to your activity since I assume that port has 'usefulness' to you. I would also agree that you are, at least indirectly, 'investing in' wine, in the sense that if you intend to buy X bottles of Y wine, you might spend less on them if you bought them earlier rather than later. There are many arguments about the costs, apparent and hidden, of such a strategy, but the wisdom of a particular action is not at issue here, but only the intention of the buyer.

The first definition might actually apply to your activity as well,, since when you are looking for improvement in the quality and drinkability of your ports, it would seem that you are looking for 'material results'.

I'm not so certain that the definition in other dictionaries would include 'expectation of material results'. Certainly financial folks use the word in the sense of an activity for which there is expectation of financial gain.

In addition, if what buying wine to cellar and eventually drink iis 'investment', how can it be distinguished clearly from what those do who buy with the expectation that it will be sold at a profit?

This is of more than linguistic interest, as we see happening to wine what happened earlier to coins and stamps, and indeed almost every 'amateur' activity: Those with money to invest scented quick profits and soon the entire atmosphere of the activity was changed and professionalized in such a way that it soon became something in which modest folks like myself lacked the ability, or even the desire, to participate. I believe that in part this is what is happening to wine, although greatly increased interest in enjoying wine is also playing a part.

[I'll not discuss here how tawdry some of the 'wine investment' schemes have turned out to be, and how great sums have disappeared from apparently reputable businesses, so as to ask myself why I would want to be associated with such an activity. Of course there are many wine investment plans that don't fit this description.]

I believe that the expectation of sale at a profit is a key difference, however we use words, because those who do have likely already affected your ability to buy certain ports and other wines that earlier you'd have had a chance to taste and own. Not very long ago, perhaps ten to twelve years, I was offered case quantities of nice bottles of 1970 Taylor and Fonseca at $50 per bottle, and bought what little of it I could afford at the time, which turned out to be 6 bottles of the wonderful Fonseca, now sadly all consumed, but with intense pleasure.

I'm sure a good price on the same wine today would be probably $125 a bottle, and I'm certain that the value of currency has not risen by 250 percent, nor has the wine changed all that much over the same period--it's just a little more mature. There are many wines that I would like to taste, let alone own, that I'm intensely interested in, that have been affected likewise. For example, beside vintage porto, vintage and solera madiera (rarely offered for sale these days from the classic vintages, unlike just ten years ago), fine German wines, Bordeaux classed growths (ugh!) and Burgundies, all of which I used to enjoy but no longer can afford, not having an unlimited disposable income.

So I believe that what you and others expect to do with your vinous purchases can be extremely significant, in this and other ways..

Thanks for taking this all in.

[Tom Archer]

If you lived in the UK, you would be suffering a government that likes to describe all it's expenditure as 'investment'.

The antics of those who buy wine with no intention of ever drinking it cause market distortions that drinkers can sometimes exploit.

The two big problems with investing in wine are:

1) The wide spread - the gulf between what you have to pay when you buy, and what you can realise when you sell.

and

2) The cost of cellaring.

Despite the rapid rise in price of fine wines, few people selling today will be achieving nett profits that compare favourably with stocks or property over the same period.

For the future, the outlook looks poor. A rise in the price of wine reduces the number of people who are actually willing to open a bottle.

I suspect that with the classed growths of Bordeaux, the number of bottles drunk each year is now significantly less than the number of bottles produced - a recipe for price implosion when the investers get cold feet..

VP is not immune from this bubble. However good they may be, the price of the 2003's is not a good starting point for an investment...

Tom

[David Spriggs]

VP is not immune from this bubble.

That's true. I remember how cheap Vintage Ports became in the US in the early 90's. I believe this was because of the poor economy, especially in the UK, and tons of VP was dumped on the market and sold for a song. Much of that port ended up in the US. I haven't seen such low pirices since.

I remember one guy from the UK saying that he had a choice -- He could keep his family estate or his wines (including the ports). So the wines were sold, in spite of the current low prices.

-Dave-

[Roy Hersh]

Dave,

Was his name "Sophie"?

[Stuart Chatfield]

If you lived in the UK, you would be suffering a government that likes to describe all it's expenditure as 'investment'.

.....................

Despite the rapid rise in price of fine wines, few people selling today will be achieving nett profits that compare favourably with stocks or property over the same period.

Agree with this whole reply from Tom so won't re-hash again why I buy port at, say, 9 years and 19 years rather than on release.

However, as bad as buying '03 on release will be financially, it won't be as bad as the government's "investment", you're right. As their ten years is coming up can we get some sort of actuary (Derek must know one from his work) to compare the price of 97 Taylors with Gordon Brown's early "invesments" in that year? May not be so bad after all!

We need a graph of performance of Taylors v "schools 'n' 'ospitals" over a ten year period.

[Derek T.]

I try to avoid contact with our Actuarial friends wherever possible - in my experience the generate more questions than answers :?

Derek

[Eric Duprey]

Roy-

I went back to my tasting notes and I saw that I had put a big asterisk (*) on my note for the Niepoort 03. For me there was something special about that one, and I'm pretty sure the Niepoort is going to be my first case buy.

[Andy Velebil]

Eric,
That was a great one and worthy of a case buy...go for it :!:

[Roy Hersh]

I wonder when the balance of 2004 VPs hit the marketplace, if there will be any change in price in the 2003s?

What do you think?