Do you drink more wood-aged Port today?

[Andy Velebil]

By the way, just out of curiosity, what do you think about this article and thoughts about Tawnies vs Vintage Ports: http://drosengarten.com/blog/tawny-port/

Mika,
I thought it to be a well written article from someone who obviously likes Tawny's a lot. There was one small error, which is quite common, in that 10/20/30/40 year old tawny's are NOT an average age as the writer states. They are meant to be similar to a Colheita of the same age. But again, that's just us uber Port nerds being super picky

As to his comments between them. He is correct in that many Portuguese are not huge VP drinkers. Then again, the history of VP, it has generally been an export item for other countries.

I do love a really good aged tawny and IMO I think it can equal or even beat many VP's of a similar age. The difference being a winemaker has only a couple years to get a VP right whereas a winemaker has decades to make subtle corrections to a tawny to ensure it's great.

[Glenn E.]

One other extremely minor nitpick - the author says that Vintage Ports are the rarest Ports, but the last data I saw says that's not true. Colheitas are the rarest Ports at roughly 1% of total Port production. Vintage Ports are approximately 2% of total Port production. That's from a few years ago, though, so it may have changed since then, and this article was written in 2001 so may not have been the case then either.

Otherwise, yes, it's a fine article. But with me he's preaching to the choir - I've been saying all those same things ever since I got into Port!

The author even got the "tawny with an indication of age" nomenclature correct. Huzzah!

[Christian Gollnick]

One other over-hyper-extremely minor nitpick - Colheitas are not the rarest Ports. Due to the web-page of the Port wine Institute there were in 2013 a total of 963,559 liter of Vintage Port sold, and 314,146 liter of Colheitas... however, only 67,724 liter of Crusted Port were sold. But I'm pretty sure that also not the Crusted Ports are the rarest Port - I would be very much surprised if the Garrafeira Ports wouldn't be the least produced/sold Ports. They must be so rare that the IVDP doesn't even publish the figures on their web-page...

[Glenn E.]

Excellent points, Christian! :)

[Andy Velebil]

One other over-hyper-extremely minor nitpick - Colheitas are not the rarest Ports. Due to the web-page of the Port wine Institute there were in 2013 a total of 963,559 liter of Vintage Port sold, and 314,146 liter of Colheitas... however, only 67,724 liter of Crusted Port were sold. But I'm pretty sure that also not the Crusted Ports are the rarest Port - I would be very much surprised if the Garrafeira Ports wouldn't be the least produced/sold Ports. They must be so rare that the IVDP doesn't even publish the figures on their web-page...

Good point as there is a ton of aging Colheita's sitting in barrels at any given time. So I also would find it hard to believe that Colheita's are the rarest of Ports. Considering Niepoort is the only one that I know of currently making and selling a Garrafeira, I too would say that is probably the rarest of Ports at the moment.

[Glenn E.]

Good point as there is a ton of aging Colheita's sitting in barrels at any given time. So I also would find it hard to believe that Colheita's are the rarest of Ports.

The point I was trying to get across is that Colheita is definitely rarer than Vintage Port, which is what everyone claims is the rarest of Ports.

I can forgive an author for not even realizing that Crusted and Garrafeira are categories since they are such small niche products, but I find it difficult to believe that any reviewer or critic of Port wouldn't be aware of Colheita and so I fault them for perpetuating the myth that VP is the rarest of Ports.

[Andy Velebil]

Good point as there is a ton of aging Colheita's sitting in barrels at any given time. So I also would find it hard to believe that Colheita's are the rarest of Ports.

The point I was trying to get across is that Colheita is definitely rarer than Vintage Port, which is what everyone claims is the rarest of Ports.

I can forgive an author for not even realizing that Crusted and Garrafeira are categories since they are such small niche products, but I find it difficult to believe that any reviewer or critic of Port wouldn't be aware of Colheita and so I fault them for perpetuating the myth that VP is the rarest of Ports.

But is it really rarer?

Maybe by volume sold, as reported by the IVDP, it may be from time to time or all the time. But in overall terms of quantity available to producers is it really the rarest? I'm not sure I know the exact answer but I suspect there is a lot more single vintage tawny's by volume being held in cask/tank than there is VP being held in bottle. So I guess the question becomes, how do we define "the rarest" between the two.

[Glenn E.]

Good point as there is a ton of aging Colheita's sitting in barrels at any given time. So I also would find it hard to believe that Colheita's are the rarest of Ports.

The point I was trying to get across is that Colheita is definitely rarer than Vintage Port, which is what everyone claims is the rarest of Ports.

I can forgive an author for not even realizing that Crusted and Garrafeira are categories since they are such small niche products, but I find it difficult to believe that any reviewer or critic of Port wouldn't be aware of Colheita and so I fault them for perpetuating the myth that VP is the rarest of Ports.

But is it really rarer?

Maybe by volume sold, as reported by the IVDP, it may be from time to time or all the time. But in overall terms of quantity available to producers is it really the rarest? I'm not sure I know the exact answer but I suspect there is a lot more single vintage tawny's by volume being held in cask/tank than there is VP being held in bottle. So I guess the question becomes, how do we define "the rarest" between the two.

"Aging in the lodge" is not the same as "available." Port that is not yet finished being produced - it's still aging - shouldn't be counted. Grapes that are still being grown - or will be grown next year, or the year after - aren't finished being produced yet either, right?

Or if you're going to count all tawny that has been produced for the last 40 years in your total - which is what you're really doing when you look at "all stocks being held in cask/tank" instead of yearly sales - then you have to do the same for Vintage Port.

Apples to apples, Colheita is rarer than Vintage Port. If you want to compare apples to oranges, then yeah you might be able to come up with a way where Vintage Port is somehow "rarer" than Colheitas, but it would be a contorted definition of rarer.

[Glenn E.]

How much VP do you have in your cellar vs how much Colheita?

I have an unusually large amount of Tawny in my cellar for a Port collector, yet it's still only 25% of my cellar (~100 bottles) and that includes TWAIOA and White Port. The other 75% is almost entirely VP... I have maybe 2 cases (out of ~300 bottles) of LBV.

Which one is rarer? It's really very obvious. The Port industry simply hypes VP as the richest and rarest and the media buys it. Doesn't mean it's true.

[Andy Velebil]

How much VP do you have in your cellar vs how much Colheita?

I have an unusually large amount of Tawny in my cellar for a Port collector, yet it's still only 25% of my cellar (~100 bottles) and that includes TWAIOA and White Port. The other 75% is almost entirely VP... I have maybe 2 cases (out of ~300 bottles) of LBV.

Which one is rarer? It's really very obvious. The Port industry simply hypes VP as the richest and rarest and the media buys it. Doesn't mean it's true.

Quite a bit, but I still generally prefer VP to Colheita's so I buy more VP's than I do Colheita's. That could easily change if I decided to.

So again, it really goes by what we are going to define as "rarest", right? You can say by the amount sold it's more rare, but VP is more rare from total amount produced and retained by producers. There are huge amounts of single vintage tawny's in the possession of producers and even larger amounts held by the Casa do Douro. Actually, there are tens, if not hundreds, of millions of liters of Colheita in the possession of the Casa do Douro alone. I assume it's safe to say there is a lot more single vintage tawny out there than most realize. And while producers do keep back stock of VP, it's not as much as most would think and most being more recent vintages within the past 20-30 years

[Glenn E.]

So again, it really goes by what we are going to define as "rarest", right? You can say by the amount sold it's more rare, but VP is more rare from total amount produced and retained by producers.

But the "retained" part of that is deceptive because you're constraining it to producers. The amount of VP "retained" in consumers' cellars easily dwarfs the amount of Colheita "retained" by producers. Plus you're effectively counting Colheita volumes repeatedly - once when "produced" and again every year as "retained" but you're only counting VP production once despite the fact that most of it is "retained" in consumer cellars for decades.

Production is what matters as that determines how much of each product is available, ever, whether it is sold immediately or held back to be sold later. We're not given production numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that yearly production of VP is 2x or 3x the yearly production of Colheita (matching yearly sales volumes).

But realistically, sales is the best measure of rarity because it determines how much of each product is actually available to consumers in any given year. There's far more VP available each year than Colheita, and that's true year after year after year.

[Andy Velebil]

But realistically, sales is the best measure of rarity because it determines how much of each product is actually available to consumers in any given year.

But again, you're now defining rare as to what is available to the consumer. Port is somewhat unique as certain ones have to age a really long time by law before you can release them. That means you have to make tons of it to keep the supply train rolling year after year after year. So if your defining it as what is released each year to buy, then yes it very well may be the rarest.

However, stop and think how much single year tawny's are made and kept, only years later it's blended away to make various types of wood aged Ports. So from production, I would argue there is more single year tawny's made than VP made each year therefor it's not as rare. Simply as producers have to keep lots on hand to make various wood aged products. When it comes to VP, you've got 2-3, maybe 4 times a decade, then a small amount of SQVP's in the better years between. Not a whole lot is kept back, it's made and mostly sold off.

Production is what matters as that determines how much of each product is available, ever, whether it is sold immediately or held back to be sold later. We're not given production numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that yearly production of VP is 2x or 3x the yearly production of Colheita (matching yearly sales volumes).

I would disagree for the reasons stated above. The interesting thing about ruby Ports is they pretty much know what is going to be a VP, or has the potential, at harvest. Which isn't much in the scheme of what is actually produced each year. The rest is shipped off to be something else.

The amount of VP "retained" in consumers' cellars easily dwarfs the amount of Colheita "retained" by producers.

Now this may be plausable...at least in the past when people and institutions (which seem to be selling more than they're buying nowdays) bought and kept large cellars. Then again, once you add in what the Casa do Douro holds alone, I'm pretty sure it's far more than all the VP in peoples cellars around the world. Heck, Warre's has one vat that holds about 178091 bottles. Add up all the other colheita holdings and that a whole lot of Port sitting around for awhile.

[Glenn E.]

But realistically, sales is the best measure of rarity because it determines how much of each product is actually available to consumers in any given year.

But again, you're now defining rare as to what is available to the consumer. Port is somewhat unique as certain ones have to age a really long time by law before you can release them. That means you have to make tons of it to keep the supply train rolling year after year after year. So if your defining it as what is released each year to buy, then yes it very well may be the rarest.

I can think of only two ways to define rarest that make any sense. Sales, as that determines availability (read: rarity) to the consumer trying to make a purchase, and total volume anywhere in the entire world.

By either of those definitions, Colheita is rarer than Vintage Port.

Counting only the volume on hand at the producer is an apples to oranges comparison. VP isn't kept on hand at the producer; Colheita is (well... more on that below). If you're using that as your definition of "rarest" it's a convoluted definition.

However, stop and think how much single year tawny's are made and kept, only years later it's blended away to make various types of wood aged Ports. So from production, I would argue there is more single year tawny's made than VP made each year therefor it's not as rare. Simply as producers have to keep lots on hand to make various wood aged products. When it comes to VP, you've got 2-3, maybe 4 times a decade, then a small amount of SQVP's in the better years between. Not a whole lot is kept back, it's made and mostly sold off.

First, those stocks that are held back are not finished product. They're components that are being aged until they're ready to be sold as finished product. Yes, they're registered through the IVDP as Colheita, but that's a registration of convenience - you can make 20-yr old out of Colheita, but you cannot make Colheita out of 20-yr old. Ergo, you declare everything as Colheita until you know how you're going to use it. As you yourself have pointed out, Noval does something similar with Nacional - it's registered just about every year, but some of that ends up being declassified and used in other products and some of it is allegedly even still aging and may one day be used as TWAIOA or Colheita.

Second, the bulk of those stocks that the producers keep in their lodges are not destined to be made into Colheita - they're destined to be made into TWAIOA. Counting them as Colheita is disingenuous at best because that's not ultimately what they're going to be.

Third, production is gated by storage space. Storage space is gated by sales. So I'd wager that despite the volumes of components that the producers have on hand, the amount that they make in any given year is simply enough to replace that which was blended and/or sold. They can't produce mass quantities of Colheita year after year as you imply unless they're also selling it to make room for more, and the IVDP sales data says they're not selling it. Ergo, they aren't producing it either.

Production is what matters as that determines how much of each product is available, ever, whether it is sold immediately or held back to be sold later. We're not given production numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that yearly production of VP is 2x or 3x the yearly production of Colheita (matching yearly sales volumes).

I would disagree for the reasons stated above. The interesting thing about ruby Ports is they pretty much know what is going to be a VP, or has the potential, at harvest. Which isn't much in the scheme of what is actually produced each year. The rest is shipped off to be something else.

The math doesn't work out for what you're saying above. There just isn't sufficient lodge space in all of Portugal for what you're saying to work. At some point they reach their storage cap, and at that point input can no longer be greater than output. Since they've been making Port for hundreds of years, I'd wager that they reached that point long, long ago.

Subject to lodge expansion, of course, but that's very slow and insignificant for our purposes.

The amount of VP "retained" in consumers' cellars easily dwarfs the amount of Colheita "retained" by producers.

Now this may be plausable...at least in the past when people and institutions (which seem to be selling more than they're buying nowdays) bought and kept large cellars. Then again, once you add in what the Casa do Douro holds alone, I'm pretty sure it's far more than all the VP in peoples cellars around the world. Heck, Warre's has one vat that holds about 178091 bottles. Add up all the other colheita holdings and that a whole lot of Port sitting around for awhile.

You're still calling those unfinished components Colheita. Until it's bottled and made available, it just isn't. Either that or we should be counting every grape grown every year as VP until they actually declare it because, well, it could be made into VP. The fact that it's probably going to be made into something else doesn't matter to your line of reasoning, right?

I don't buy the Casa do Douro argument, either, as those stocks are also most likely going to be used as components in TWAIOA and not Colheita. If they were good enough to be Colheita, people would already be selling them as Colheita. I don't believe I've ever had something from the Casa do Douro stocks, but we both know people who have and from what I've heard those stocks aren't viable as Colheitas.

[Roy Hersh]

Tonight, when time permits, I am going to open a bottle and sit here drinking it slowly while reading this entire thread over again. This is educational and entertaining. Great thread!

[Glenn E.]

Now that you mention it, I still have some 1986 Noval Colheita on the counter downstairs...

[Roy Hersh]

It must be vinegar by now.

[Andy Velebil]

First, those stocks that are held back are not finished product.

Second, the bulk of those stocks that the producers keep in their lodges are not destined to be made into Colheita - they're destined to be made into TWAIOA. Counting them as Colheita is disingenuous at best because that's not ultimately what they're going to be.

I am confused. They are finished products. Registered with the IVDP. What happens to them later is not material. They may end turn out to be better than originally thought and released as a Colheita. They may not and blended away. But it is a duly registered Colheita with the IVDP.

Sales, as that determines availability (read: rarity) to the consumer trying to make a purchase, and total volume anywhere in the entire world.

Ok, so under that, then yes Colheita is probably the rarest by Sales. But by total volume anywhere, VP would be the rarest. (I wish I could find the picture which showed how many millions of liters of colheita's the Casa do Douro was holding in stock. It was mind blowingly huge. Of course if you narrowed that to just consumers, then Colheita's are probably the rarest only because not much is kept for long term bottle storage.

As you yourself have pointed out, Noval does something similar with Nacional - it's registered just about every year, but some of that ends up being declassified and used in other products and some of it is allegedly even still aging and may one day be used as TWAIOA or Colheita.

Actually, I didn't say NN is blended away...I was theorizing as none of us really know what is done with it. We do know for certain they've made at least one vintage of Colheita to be released at some point, and they declare almost every vintage from what I've heard (though not all are released as we know). I'm certain in really bad years it all gets tossed...or maybe blended away during fermentation, but that is pure speculation and guessing.

Third, production is gated by storage space. Storage space is gated by sales. So I'd wager that despite the volumes of components that the producers have on hand, the amount that they make in any given year is simply enough to replace that which was blended and/or sold. They can't produce mass quantities of Colheita year after year as you imply unless they're also selling it to make room for more, and the IVDP sales data says they're not selling it. Ergo, they aren't producing it either.

Interestingly most of the major producers have all increased their storage capacity.....

[Andy Velebil]

Tonight, when time permits, I am going to open a bottle and sit here drinking it slowly while reading this entire thread over again. This is educational and entertaining. Great thread!

You'll probably need two bottles for this thread. One to read with and one make your head stop spinning after

[Glenn E.]

First, those stocks that are held back are not finished product.

Second, the bulk of those stocks that the producers keep in their lodges are not destined to be made into Colheita - they're destined to be made into TWAIOA. Counting them as Colheita is disingenuous at best because that's not ultimately what they're going to be.

I am confused. They are finished products. Registered with the IVDP. What happens to them later is not material. They may end turn out to be better than originally thought and released as a Colheita. They may not and blended away. But it is a duly registered Colheita with the IVDP.

So they're finished, but they may not be finished? Which is it?

They're not finished or they'd be for sale in their current state. They're still aging/maturing until someone deems that they're ready to bottle and sell as Colheita or blend and sell as TWAIOA (e.g. finished). Until that determination is made, they may be registered as Colheita but the reality is that they're unfinished components of some future product. As I said before, it's a registration of convenience.

Ok, so under that, then yes Colheita is probably the rarest by Sales. But by total volume anywhere, VP would be the rarest. (I wish I could find the picture which showed how many millions of liters of colheita's the Casa do Douro was holding in stock. It was mind blowingly huge. Of course if you narrowed that to just consumers, then Colheita's are probably the rarest only because not much is kept for long term bottle storage.)

I get that the Casa do Douro has vast reserves of tawny Port aging in giant apartment building-sized vats. But as I've already pointed out, the vast bulk of that will be used (if it's ever used) as components of TWAIOA because it just isn't good enough to be sold as Colheita. Yes, they do sell some of it (a small trickle) as Colheita every year, but that's already accounted for in the IVDP's sales numbers.

Maybe in 100 years Taylor will buy all of it and release it as "Very Ancient Taylor Reserve Tawny" for 9999€ per 750ml.

As you yourself have pointed out, Noval does something similar with Nacional - it's registered just about every year, but some of that ends up being declassified and used in other products and some of it is allegedly even still aging and may one day be used as TWAIOA or Colheita.

Actually, I didn't say NN is blended away...I was theorizing as none of us really know what is done with it. We do know for certain they've made at least one vintage of Colheita to be released at some point, and they declare almost every vintage from what I've heard (though not all are released as we know). I'm certain in really bad years it all gets tossed...or maybe blended away during fermentation, but that is pure speculation and guessing.

Ah, my mistake, I misunderstood.

Third, production is gated by storage space. Storage space is gated by sales. So I'd wager that despite the volumes of components that the producers have on hand, the amount that they make in any given year is simply enough to replace that which was blended and/or sold. They can't produce mass quantities of Colheita year after year as you imply unless they're also selling it to make room for more, and the IVDP sales data says they're not selling it. Ergo, they aren't producing it either.

Interestingly most of the major producers have all increased their storage capacity.....

But they haven't (dramatically) increased their sales of Colheita, which holds steady at 1/2 to 1/3 of VP sales over time.

Besides, they have to plan ahead you know. Where are they going to get 100- and 200-year old Colheitas to sell in the next couple of centuries if they don't start aging the components for it now? They have this whole "new category" that they can sell to rich collectors!

Come to think of it, the Casa do Douro stocks might just be perfect for that. It's not going to get drunk anyway, right?

Part of the problem with counting all of the stocks currently aging in lodges is that in doing so you're comparing decades of production of tawnies of all types with a single year's production of VP. Add up all the VP produced over those same decades and you'll find that 2x or 3x as much VP was made as Colheita... just like the IVDP's sales numbers indicate.

[Eric Menchen]

I'm with Glenn on this one.

And, tawny volume shrinks with age. You might have declared 10,000 liters in 1960, but you won't have that much in the barrels today.