the Great Divide

[Glenn E.]

Ports that I've scored 85-89 are ones that I like and would be happy to have offered to me, but which I'm not likely to go out and buy for myself. I'd rather get something in the 90s because I've found that they're often the same price.

To further clarify this comment, I don't actually drink that much Port. Ignoring tastings, I drink 1-2 bottles of Port per month. That means that every time I open a bottle it's a bit of an occasion, so I like to open somewhat "nicer" bottles.

I get far more enjoyment out of a 20-yr old Tawny than I do from a 10-yr old Tawny, so the 50% price increase (roughly speaking) is worth it for me. It's not that I don't enjoy a 10-yr old, just that for me it's worth the price to upgrade to a 20-yr old for my own drinking. Semi-coincidentally, those 20-yr olds typically rate 90+ for me while 10-yr olds rate in the upper 80s.

Similarly, I'd rather open an LBV than a Ruby Reserve. The price difference in Seattle is minimal (typically 10-20%) and the quality is well worth it for me. That upgrade also tends to bump me up from the upper 80s for a Ruby Reserve to 90+ for an LBV, though not always.

[Alan McDonald]

Glenn, Your last post is what I find particularly irritating about this site which is called "For the love of Port".

I find it extremely difficult to join in threads when people like you tell us you only drink one to two bottle of Port a month. How can you, and everyone else on here, claim to "love" Port if you drink so little? How can anybody profess to be knowledgeable about something of which they consume such an insignificant amount?

I am not making a personal attack, it is just that with a consumption of only one to two bottles a month nobody can acquire the experience necessary to claim to be knowledgeable about any wine.

[Andy Velebil]

Glenn, Your last post is what I find particularly irritating about this site which is called "For the love of Port".

I find it extremely difficult to join in threads when people like you tell us you only drink one to two bottle of Port a month. How can you, and everyone else on here, claim to "love" Port if you drink so little? How can anybody profess to be knowledgeable about something of which they consume such an insignificant amount?

I am not making a personal attack, it is just that with a consumption of only one to two bottles a month nobody can acquire the experience necessary to claim to be knowledgeable about any wine.

Here Here

I normally drink/taste a lot of Port. This year has been no exception. Save this summer which has been unusually hot and humid in my parts and consumption has gone down (ok, I'm trying to lose a few more pounds as well. But that is really secondary). Soon that will change and I'll be back into the full swing of things. Can't wait

[Glenn E.]

Glenn, Your last post is what I find particularly irritating about this site which is called "For the love of Port".

I find it extremely difficult to join in threads when people like you tell us you only drink one to two bottle of Port a month. How can you, and everyone else on here, claim to "love" Port if you drink so little? How can anybody profess to be knowledgeable about something of which they consume such an insignificant amount?

I am not making a personal attack, it is just that with a consumption of only one to two bottles a month nobody can acquire the experience necessary to claim to be knowledgeable about any wine.

Alan,

I drink no other alcohol to speak of, so it's all relative.

And I disagree that one would have to drink more than 1-2 bottles per month ignoring tastings in order to acquire any necessary experience. One does not need to be an alcoholic in order to understand or even be an expert about wine. But the key there is that I'm only talking about the Port I drink for personal pleasure and I'm not counting the many Ports I'm lucky enough to be able to taste at various tastings every year.

I will likely taste 150+ Ports in one week on the Port Harvest Tour next month, but I won't count any of those in my 1-2 per month because they'll all be at arranged tastings.

[Alan McDonald]

Glenn, As I said, not a personal attack, although obviously you were included in those posters who drink very little Port. I know there are few from earlier threads. Tasting is not drinking, especially if you are going to taste 150+ in a week. Slightly different tack, but are you now going to tell me that you can properly evaluate over 150 Ports in a week? To do so your palate would have to be in the same receptive state late in the tasting sessions on the last few days as it was at the beginning of the session on the first day. Given between 20 and 30 a day, how long is a tasting session? Are you tasting in the mornings, as well as afternoons and evenings? Your body changes over the day, not just your palate.

I doubt that any alcoholic person would have much knowledge of what they were drinking - and the few I have known of have tended to be spirit drinkers anyway. I think I drink only a small amount of Port, approximately one fifth of a bottle a night. My wife drinks very slightly more, but as with you, it is frequently the only alcohol she has. My MIL(aged 87) is with us for 6 weeks every year, 3 weeks at Christmas and 3 weeks in May to cover all our birthdays, and she drinks about the same amount of Port as me, so we get through a few extra bottles, and different to our most frequent run of the mill Rubys, during that time.

Everybody can do what they like with their money, but those of you who taste and do not drink please tell me why you go to all the effort and great expense of tasting and evaluating a drink you have no intention of consuming. For whom are you making the assessment. It cannot be yourself if you are not going to drink it. To quote Allan Sichel (Chateau Palmer) - "The image (wine) conjures up in people's minds is strictly individual." I learned a lot from his writings.

[Glenn E.]

Alan, why do you need to drink in order to enjoy? Can you not derive enjoyment from tasting several different Ports in one sitting instead of drinking 2-3 glasses of the same Port? Since it is the same amount of alcohol, wouldn't you get more enjoyment out of the variety?

(For the record, in my usage a "tasting" is something you do in order to evaluate the Ports and write a proper tasting note. A "drinking" is something you do to kick back and relax with friends over a few glasses of Port... maybe you write a tasting not or maybe not, but it isn't important. Neither implies anything about the level of consumption - some people consume everything at a tasting while others spit. Some people only consume one glass at a drinking while others might consume an entire bottle.)

As for properly evaluating 150 Ports in one week, no I don't think anyone can at full capacity, not if they are consuming the servings. I think most professional critics spit when they're going to be evaluating a very large number of samples at one time. I don't like to spit because I feel that Port was made to be consumed, though I don't always consume the entire serving if there's something still in front of me that I like better. My palate is usually only fully functional for 8-10 Ports in a single sitting. Maybe 12 if it's a longer sitting. I have many tastings notes from later flights in very large tastings that consist of not much more than "yum" or "tastes good" or something similar. That said, on the Port Harvest Tour we will probably have at least 2 sittings every day and 3 some days. As I recall from 2010, they're usually about 4 hours long. Yes, it's almost a feat of endurance, but you get to see things and try Ports that most people can only dream about, so it's worth the effort.

Your fifth of a bottle per night is 6 bottles per month if you do it every night, weekends included. That seems like an awful lot of Port to me, especially if you also drink dry wines.

those of you who taste and do not drink

I think you're misunderstanding what we're saying. I, at least, still consume everything I taste, as do most of the others at the tastings that I have been to. But even for those who do not, just tasting the Port (and not consuming it) may be all they need to enjoy the evening. Who are we to question their motives, or to dictate how much Port they must consume in order to make their tasting worth their while?

[Alan McDonald]

Alan, why do you need to drink in order to enjoy? Can you not derive enjoyment from tasting several different Ports in one sitting instead of drinking 2-3 glasses of the same Port? Since it is the same amount of alcohol, wouldn't you get more enjoyment out of the variety?

That said, on the Port Harvest Tour we will probably have at least 2 sittings every day and 3 some days. As I recall from 2010, they're usually about 4 hours long. Yes, it's almost a feat of endurance, but you get to see things and try Ports that most people can only dream about, so it's worth the effort.

Your fifth of a bottle per night is 6 bottles per month if you do it every night, weekends included. That seems like an awful lot of Port to me, especially if you also drink dry wines.

those of you who taste and do not drink

I think you're misunderstanding what we're saying. I, at least, still consume everything I taste, as do most of the others at the tastings that I have been to. But even for those who do not, just tasting the Port (and not consuming it) may be all they need to enjoy the evening. Who are we to question their motives, or to dictate how much Port they must consume in order to make their tasting worth their while?

That opening sentence of your is really quite stupifying. What is any drink for? Drinking!!!! I get at least half my enjoyment from any drink (and I drink a lot of plain water everyday) from the back palate to down the throat. I never said I drink my daily Port from only one bottle. It is usual for us to have two bottles of different Ports open, sometimes three. Generally at least two different reds too, although only one white since we tend not to be looking for whites for potential cellaring. I do not drink Port, or any other wine, for the alcohol content. I want to be sober to enjoy what I drink. The fact that wines contain alcohol just happens to be a fact, and to drink wine means consuming alcohol - to which I have no objection. My consumption of all wines is purely to complement food. I do not want the food to overpower the wine, which is easily done, but nor do I want the wine to overpower the food. Enjoyment of the food is paramount, the wine is secondary. You have twice made references to alcohol content or alcoholism. That suggest to me you have an incorrect preconceived idea that I drink wine for its acohol.

If your tasting sessions last that long, then I most certainly would not want to be participating in two or three a day. I could probably take one in the early evening and then have to be extremely selective in my choice of dinner courses, and what might complement them.

It is your prerogative to think 6 bottles of Port a month is "an awful lot of Port". It is just sufficient for the quantity of biscuits, butter and cheese that I eat. If I ate less, then I would drink less Port. Obviously I drink table wines, again sufficient for the dish I am eating.

Your last paragraph says you consume everything you taste. That means that you could be drinking more Port than me. What is your total consumption (since you seem to consider this important) from tastings and social drinking? Is it less than me? Are you eating whilst you are consuming this alcohol? Are you taking it on an empty stomach? Are you taking it for the alcoholic content, as you suggest I might be? As I have already said, drinking the wine -the traversing of the very back of the mouth, down the throat and into the stomach, accounts for at least half my enjoyment of wine.

Just tasting it is to me very similar to those people who go out and catch fish, subjecting them to at least discomfort and fear, and then putting them back in the water. Why do it? Leave the fish where it is for somebody else to catch and eat. Wine is made for drinking, not just for the mouth. Why should I not question somebody why they choose to go to the enomous expense and expenditure of time to only taste a wine without drinking it. I am convinced that they miss so much of the pleasure if they do not drink it. You obviously enjoy drinking from what you have posted, and I would like to know the purpose of only tasting and not drinking. Surely there has to be a purpose, even if it is only to be able to boast about having tasted Ports that most people can only dream about. If that is your purpose then I accept it as a satisfactory answer to my question. I would still like to know why others do it.

I eat a lot. I am 70 years old, farming full time, work about 60 hours a week, probably only half of that as moderate to heavy manual work, the remainder on the tractor or pottering about type work. I have been within five pounds of 200 for approximately 45 years. Sizewise 5'10" and a 50" chest on a 40" waist. I post that for information and to dispel any thoughts that I am a fat layabout who just likes to drink.

[Glenn E.]

Alan, I think you are misunderstanding something. Let's go back to your first response to me.

Glenn, Your last post is what I find particularly irritating about this site which is called "For the love of Port".

I find it extremely difficult to join in threads when people like you tell us you only drink one to two bottle of Port a month. How can you, and everyone else on here, claim to "love" Port if you drink so little? How can anybody profess to be knowledgeable about something of which they consume such an insignificant amount?

I am not making a personal attack, it is just that with a consumption of only one to two bottles a month nobody can acquire the experience necessary to claim to be knowledgeable about any wine.

You latched onto one part of my prior post - that ignoring tastings I only drink one or two bottles of Port each month - and from there you concluded that no one with such a consumption rate could be knowledgeable about any wine. From which I could have easily concluded that you were saying that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Luckily I didn't take it as a personal attack, but rather as a misunderstanding.

My post to which you responded was in response to Alex, and I was clarifying that since I only drink a couple of bottles of Port per month, it makes sense to me that my standards might be higher than others' regarding what I drink. I see no point in drinking ruby reserves - me, personally, not anyone else - because I have the financial wherewithal to pay for higher quality in part due to my relatively limited personal pleasure consumption.

You latched onto that number and didn't consider that I might also get exposure to a wide variety of Port from the tastings that I attend, which I specifically ignored in my 1-2 per month number. I don't drink any single Port in great quantity during any given year, but I drink many different Ports in small quantity so that I can evaluate them. Not as many different Ports as Roy, or Andy, or Alex, but more than enough to have gained an appreciation for the variety that is available in our favorite drink.

Does that clear it up for you? If not, then I'm afraid I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. It seems to me that you're saying that one needs to drink a lot of Port in order to be knowledgeable about it. But shouldn't that instead be a wide variety of Port, and not a large quantity?

[Alan McDonald]

Perhaps if we continue posting long enough we might reach consensus. First you have to acknowledge that you drink a lot more than 1 to 2 bottles of Port a month. "I don't like to spit because I feel that Port was made to be consumed,..." is a quote from one of your posts. What does worry me about your posts is the way you keep attacking the quantity I drink and your obsession with the amount of alcohol in what I drink, yet denying that you consume more than 1 to 2 bottles a month. How much, in total, in a year, do you drink in tastings? You should have posted "... plus tastings.." since you drink them too, and not .."ignoring tastings..", which you even italicised. From that I assumed you did not drink the tastings.

What I say is that unless someone drinks something then they are not obtaining the full experience of whatever it is they put in their mouth. It appears that you agree with that, and so obtain further enjoyment from the tasting by consuming that which was made to be consumed as you put it. That is my point right from the beginning, and why I said that only drinking 1 to 2 bottles a month could not give anyone sufficient experience of anything. 6 to 12 bottles a year needs a lot of years to build up the experience of drinking a particular anything.

Now tasters either drink what they are tasting, or they do not drink it. If, as you say you do, drink all that you taste, or even just most of them, then I would say you are drinking an extremely wide range of Ports and over just a few years you would build up an enormous experience, far more than someone like me who does not attend tastings would obtain in a lifetime. But you cannot tell the world to ignore your tastings if you are actually drinking them.

I stick by my second post on this thread, which thankfully you have repeated immediatley below to save everyone scrolling down, that someone who drinks only 1 to 2 bottles of a wine a month cannot obtain the necessary experience. Since you obviously consume a lot more than that there is no reason why you should take offence.

A quote from your last post: "It seems to me that you're saying that one needs to drink a lot of Port in order to be knowledgeable about it. But shouldn't that instead be a wide variety of Port, and not a large quantity?" Yet again, despite me telling you otherwise, you infer that I drink a lot of only one Port. Of course it is necessary to have a wide variety of anything that one wishes to decide either to drink in the future or never again, and I have already told you that I do, but it is also necessary to drink sufficient of one, and compare it with others to determine a preference, or rating if you prefer, and perhaps using one as a benchmark. Given the price and ready availability we tend to use Ferreira against which to judge others on a "value for money" basis. We make our judgments on a bottle compared against other bottles over two or more nights - with the cheeses we expect to be eating when we drink them in the future.

I like Roy's post "Scoring Ports is a great way to reflect and have a benchmark that can be looked back upon to provide a data point of where a Port was at a specific moment, but I don't get all caught up in chasing only Ports that get great ratings. I get the feeling that many of us here have a similar feeling in that regard." I am not so sure his last sentence is correct.

[Glenn E.]

Okay, Alan, I'm just not going to respond to you any more.

You claim your initial post to me was not a personal attack, when if you go back and read it closely it very much was, and yet you seem to take everything I write as a personal attack against you.

To avoid further personal attacks, I'm done here. I have no idea what point you're trying to make, and it is no longer worth any effort on my part to find out.

[Andy Velebil]

I am fine drinking 85-89 point Ports at this time and often really enjoy them regardless of their ratings. Scoring Ports is a great way to reflect and have a benchmark that can be looked back upon to provide a data point of where a Port was at a specific moment, but I don't get all caught up in chasing only Ports that get great ratings.

That is exactly how I feel. I enjoy port that I score in the 85-89 point range and will frequently choose to open a bottle which I expect to be of that quality. Occasionally, when sharing a bottle with friends or when I've had a bad week at work, I will open something I expect to be 90+/100. I like variety rather than greatness but, like Allan, see no point in buying or opening things I know I won't enjoy.

I normally drink quite a bit of things along the lines of Six Grapes, under $20 LBV's, etc. Stuff mostly under 90 points. Simply as they are usually well priced for daily drinking, are still very good, and I would be bored to death if all I could drink was the exact same type of Port all the time. Gotta have a little variety. Typically, the older VP's are reserved for when I have Port loving company over, want to check in to see how a particular bottle/vintage is coming along, tastings, etc. Maybe if I win the lotto and can buy cases and cases of all my favorite old VP's I'll stick to those, but again, I like variety so in reality I would still be drinking those sub 90 point bottles.

[Alan McDonald]

Andy, That post of yours sums up a lot more eloquently than myself what my wine consumption is all about.

Except for an occasional beer towards the end of a hot afternoon when I am still working (I am part way through my second six pack this year, and two of those were consumed by visitors) I only consume alcoholic beverages with my food, plus an extremely rare nightcap of selected whisky or brandy. Food is very important to me, wine secondary, but I do find it adds to the enjoyment of the food, if chosen to match the food. Port is for cheese, and different cheeses warrant different Ports.

Like you, I admit to drinking what some might consider excessive amounts, and a wide variety, hence our normally having more than one bottle of anything open at any given time. My wife drinks little table wine, but enjoys Port. I am sure both of you could place your preferences of various makes and styles in a reasonably accurate order without reference to any previous notes. In fact my wife does not have any such notes.