Single Harvest Port vs Colheita

[Andy Velebil]

There are at least a dozen Malvasia grape varieties throughout Portugal and there is no specific evidence, (that I am aware of) that it is genetically linked to that of the original Italian version.

I believe the genetic testing on the last original Malvasia Candida vine on the Faja dos Padres showed that it is genetically the same as the Malvasia di Lipari from the Mediterranean. This was the vine found by Mario Fernandes and who's cutting were used to repropagate the variety on the Island.

I believe Carole Meredith, who did a lot of grape DNA testing at UC Davis, linked a lot of different grape varieties to each other. IIRC, the study showed Cabernet Sauvignon was linked as an offspring of a combo of Sauvignon Blanc and Cab Franc. I'll have to try and find the article and post it, it was very interesting reading.

[Andy Velebil]

IMO, for those producers who don't have a track record of tawny's built for aging I tend to prefer them with no more than about 3-5 years of age after bottling date. That is a general rule of thumb for me and not a hard line in the sand. As it depends on type, vintage and bottling date after harvest. Though I typically find much past 4-5 years the lose of freshness becomes very pronounced.

Wasn't it Dirk Niepoort who said that it was filtration that prevented wood aged Ports from improving in bottle?

Probably. I know Niepoort, for the most part at least at one time and I assume still does, simply allows the barrel to sit and settle then siphons off the top to avoid sediment.

[Roy Hersh]

Yes, he initially said, "no processing" and when questioned further, mentioned fining and filtration.

[John Trombley]

I'd agree with the statement that filtration is a problem, but I think that the style and quality of the materials play a big role as well, wouldn't you say, Eric? For example, I'm sure that what some put in their LBVs is quite a bit finer than others, and there is a definite quality breakpoint between those who age longer and shorter in wood, n'est-ce pas?

[Roy Hersh]

Because a Port wine, specifically LBV, is created as a filtered wine meant to be consumed early on, I do not believe that affects its immediate taste, (if done blind). In other words, can you taste the difference if a wine has been filtered or not? There may be a super-taster from within the industry that could taste the difference, but I would defy any person from our community to try this test: Take 5 filtered LBV Ports and 5 that are Unfiltered. Bag them and mix up the order in which they are served. See if you can blind taste the difference. Can you even get 5 of 10 correctly? This type of challenge would be very telling, and unless lucky ... I think being 50% correct or so, would be a good score. Can you really taste that difference, I don't think so.

That being said, we are getting pretty far afield from the topic here.

[John Trombley]

True, far afield, perhaps, but what an interesting tasting! Do you know if it's ever been done and the results published, Roy?

jht

[Roy Hersh]

Nope.

But I can say a blind tasting was done very recently, two Unfiltered and two bottles of LBV that had been filtered and none of the 3 tasters could tell which was and which wasn't (filtered) me included. So unless a winemaker, and honestly I doubt that most of them would get more than 6 correctly (in a 10 bottle lineup) had an unbelievably sensitive palate, this would be nothing more than a parlor trick. I've relayed here a story many times, but it's worth repeating as we continue to drift further afield from the discussion of Colheita nomenclature:

In 2000, here in Seattle at The World Vinifera Conference, a group of a couple of hundred wine industry aficionados from around the globe, sat in the audience.
On stage were 5 MWs and 5 winemakers from Washington State, (one of whom, the late David Lake of Columbia Winery fame) sat on the side of very well known (to most of us) WA winemakers. They were each given 5 glasses of 1995 Bordeaux blends from WA State and 5 glasses of 1995 Claret that were from prestigious producers. There job was to pick out which were from WA and which were the Bordeaux bottlings. The audience were served 1 oz. pours of each, as well, in the identical order. All were obviously blind. None of the 10 esteemed individuals on stage got more than 6 correctly and more than half had 4 or less correctly. I had 3 right.

This was the exercise and exact moment that taught me how incredibly difficult blind tasting is. When the MWs on stage, (some world known figures!) failed so famously, ... as did the WA winemakers, and only one or two people in the audience claimed to have something like 8 right ... no less my own poor "guesses" ... I realized that blind tasting was so very difficult. 16 years later and many such incidence personally and as a spectator, I've only grown more impressed with those that have the palate memory to focus and be able to blind taste with a great sense of accuracy. That is why I never claim to be able to pick out producers from a blind lineup, even if I know what producer's Ports are in the lineup. I can determine what I taste and pick out the organoleptic qualities, but producer ... no. I've watched people in the Port trade do this with very little luck. 22 filled seats at The Factory House with Managing Directors and winemakers (May 1994) and when it came time to "pick the Port" as they called it, not one person nailed both vintage and producer. One person nailed the producer and a couple nailed the vintage, another great lesson about blind tasting. If these experts and masters of the Port universe were unable to guess with any accuracy, who possibly could?

[Glenn E.]

]IMO, for those producers who don't have a track record of tawny's built for aging I tend to prefer them with no more than about 3-5 years of age after bottling date. That is a general rule of thumb for me and not a hard line in the sand. As it depends on type, vintage and bottling date after harvest. Though I typically find much past 4-5 years the lose of freshness becomes very pronounced.

Wasn't it Dirk Niepoort who said that it was filtration that prevented wood aged Ports from improving in bottle?

Yes and yes (I think).

I tend to have more tolerance for aging Tawny Port than others, but I agree with Andy's rule of thumb. For most people, you'll want to drink your aged tawnies within 3-5 years of bottling. Personally I can push that to 6-8 years without any trouble at all, but that's because I like the way they age. What Andy and others call "losing freshness" is for me a mellowing of the way the acidity presents itself. For some producers - notably Kopke - that mellowing makes the Port better to me.

Niepoorts are an exception to the 3-5 year rule of thumb. They can age for a very long time without any trouble at all. I've had a Niepoort 30-yr old that had been in bottle for 30 years and it was delicious! Different than a newly bottled example, but still amazing.

[Andy Velebil]

Nope.

But I can say a blind tasting was done very recently, two Unfiltered and two bottles of LBV that had been filtered and none of the 3 tasters could tell which was and which wasn't (filtered) me included. So unless a winemaker, and honestly I doubt that most of them would get more than 6 correctly (in a 10 bottle lineup) had an unbelievably sensitive palate, this would be nothing more than a parlor trick. I've relayed here a story many times, but it's worth repeating as we continue to drift further afield from the discussion of Colheita nomenclature:

In 2000, here in Seattle at The World Vinifera Conference, a group of a couple of hundred wine industry aficionados from around the globe, sat in the audience.
On stage were 5 MWs and 5 winemakers from Washington State, (one of whom, the late David Lake of Columbia Winery fame) sat on the side of very well known (to most of us) WA winemakers. They were each given 5 glasses of 1995 Bordeaux blends from WA State and 5 glasses of 1995 Claret that were from prestigious producers. There job was to pick out which were from WA and which were the Bordeaux bottlings. The audience were served 1 oz. pours of each, as well, in the identical order. All were obviously blind. None of the 10 esteemed individuals on stage got more than 6 correctly and more than half had 4 or less correctly. I had 3 right.

This was the exercise and exact moment that taught me how incredibly difficult blind tasting is. When the MWs on stage, (some world known figures!) failed so famously, ... as did the WA winemakers, and only one or two people in the audience claimed to have something like 8 right ... no less my own poor "guesses" ... I realized that blind tasting was so very difficult. 16 years later and many such incidence personally and as a spectator, I've only grown more impressed with those that have the palate memory to focus and be able to blind taste with a great sense of accuracy. That is why I never claim to be able to pick out producers from a blind lineup, even if I know what producer's Ports are in the lineup. I can determine what I taste and pick out the organoleptic qualities, but producer ... no. I've watched people in the Port trade do this with very little luck. 22 filled seats at The Factory House with Managing Directors and winemakers (May 1994) and when it came time to "pick the Port" as they called it, not one person nailed both vintage and producer. One person nailed the producer and a couple nailed the vintage, another great lesson about blind tasting. If these experts and masters of the Port universe were unable to guess with any accuracy, who possibly could?

A big +1. I too have seen many a producer/winemaker that wasn't able to pick out their wine or even the vintage with any accuracy. Which is why I love blind tasting things, in the right setting of course.

[Eric Ifune]

I've a bottle of 40 year old Taylors. Probably bottled more than 20 years ago. It was a secondary bottle in a mixed lot bought at auction some time ago. I've just never gotten around to trying it, since I'm not expecting much. I guess I should finally give it a try.

[Roy Hersh]

And drifting further off course: In many Madeira tastings, I have never seen anybody be able to pick out Solera bottlings from "Vintage" / Frasqueira bottlings when they had enough age on them. It too, is extremely difficult and the only person I've ever heard say that he believed he was good at this is Ricardo Freitas the winemaker at Barbeito. None of the other winemakers or owners on the island that I've asked, or even Mannie Berk felt that they had an acuity in being able to pick a Solera out of a lineup of "Vintage" Madeiras.

Maybe we should split the two discussions into different threads? Moderators ... please feel free to keep the original topic. Then maybe the last bunch of posts under a new title of "Blind Tasting" or whatever you feel best represents that other posts. Two excellent discussions, but they likely should not be in one thread and I'll take the blame for that.

[John Trombley]

Actually, Roy, I'm afraid you were just responding to questions that the likes of me added to the thread. I think you're right to split this up if it can be done cleanly. What a fascinating topic! Especially because I have the definite impression that the 'traditional' LVPs are higher in quality and bigger in style. Oh well.. I remember that at MoCOOL Madeline Truffon, Michigan Woman Sommelier Extraodinary, set up at blind tasting with fine examples from every famous Cabernet Sauvignon growing region on the planet. I think I got 19 out of 20--wrong. I was cruelly disappointed by actually correctly identifying the very last wine, which was from South Africa. This was ten plus years back, and the prize was a bottle of Harlan. I haven't had the heart to do any blind tastings after that.