For The Love Of Port

Even if it didn't work out in the long run it would be great research material for future generations.

How true.

Derek T. wrote:It doesn't work for table wines so why would it work for port?

Thats not true, I've had some older white wines that were still quite amazing and not over the hill yet. So it is possible, but those are the exceptions not the rule...but white colheita's/tawny's are the same. They are the exception, not the rule for most white Ports available.

Hi all,

I don't think there are enough white vines planted in Grade A spots to produce enough for bottle aged VP. Keep in mind that a bottle run of less than 5000 bottles is a tricky business case. But I'm certain that white colheita with date could work as could white tawny blend of 10, 20, 30 and 40. But again, how many house have enough reserves in oak as we speak.

I think it will remain rare and precious to find an old white port.

Side note: I found a small wine shop in Leiria that has a large amount of basic lagrima whites that he has kept for 10-20 years. So they are bottle aged by him if you will. He claims it works. Mostly Real Companhia Velha whites.

Thanks
/Paul

Paul,

I think it is no where near as difficult to do 300-750 case bottlings nowadays and there are plenty of white Port grape vineyards to support those levels today. Additionally, from my experience there is a serious interest in Portugal and NEED to expand the white Douro DOC wines too. The grapes are not the issue, imo.

Finding the "market" for the Vintage White Ports could be a conflict of interests with their main impetus to produce classic Vintage Ports (red) in terms of marketing efforts, stainless tanks and oak cases (as mentioned) and also shelf space in the UK, USA and Canada ... not to mention other key markets.

I do believe that like Colheitas and some nice white DOC wines many of us have enjoyed, that a Vintage White Port could work if one of the names like Noval, Crasto, Ramos Pinto, Ferreira, Quinta do Portal or Niepoort led the charge. It would have to be a concerted effort by a handful of companies and probably not just one of them ... taking point. Of course, nobody is going to take this all seriously and it is just supposition, however, I truly believe that if they wanted to raise the bar ... this is something that could certainly fly.

I remember back in 2000 (actually a short period of time in reality) ... NOBODY ... was talking about quality white wines coming out of the Douro. Things can change pretty rapidly these days in the region. In fact, there has probably been greater change in the Douro since 1990-today than the past century or more!

This was an interesting thread to catch up with and a good one to revive. Initially when I started to read I was sceptical and dismissive of white port as something only enjoyable when mixed with tonic, mint and ice. I have never enjoyed a white port on its own.

But then I remembered some of the white colheitas that I have had - which have been stunning so clearly white port has something significant to offer; but still I dismissed the possibility of bottle aged white ports.

And then I read Derek's comment,

Derek T wrote:It doesn't work for table wines so why would it work for port?

It does work for table wines to a limited extent - but we're not talking about table wines, were talking about port. To me, a better parallel would not be with white table wines but would be between white port and sweet white table wines. Port is sweet from having residual sugar retained by the stopped fermentation so if this parallel works then white port should be capable of aging for decades - just like good, sweet white wines.

Oscar - if you do decide to try some experimental white vintage ports then I would love to volunteer to help you out!

Alex

It does work for table wines to a limited extent - but we're not talking about table wines, were talking about port.

I certainly do not want to sound dismissive. I don´t think that anyone who has been to the Douro recently can say "to a limited extent" anymore, as dozens of producers are now showing white Port where even 2-3 years ago this was not the case. But those who were experimenting are now putting their successes to market. It is possible though that either they are not making their way over to the UK or more likely, finding resistance to gaining shelf space for this relatively new category.

But back to your larger point Alex, I have had sweet white Port as old as 1917 which held its own every bit as well as any red grape-based Port wine. I personally have zero doubt that white grapes are capable of this ... and the best example, is using the same genus of the cultivars grown elsewhere by Portuguese authorities ... better known as Madeira. If they are able to get Moscatel, Malvasia and others which also happen to be in the Douro with slightly different names, I think there is little doubt that a fortified white Port can be sweet and age particularly well. Whether that would translate well into a Vintage Port from white grapes was the original premise.

Just to clarify, I am not saying that good white ports cannot be produced. That would be stupid as I already know it not to be true. My point is that I do not think bottle aged white port from white grapes is likely to have the long term ageing potential required to make classic VP. I accept that table wine and fortified wine are different subjects but surely there is something to be drawn from te fact that the market in classic wines intended for long term ageing is almost exclusively red.

Oscar - feel free to prove me wrong in June

Derek T. wrote:Oscar - feel free to prove me wrong in June

Derek, not this June but maybe in 2 or 3 Junes..!

oscarquevedo wrote:

Derek T. wrote:Oscar - feel free to prove me wrong in June

Derek, not this June but maybe in 2 or 3 Junes..!

Darn, will just have to wait a little longer

I for one am glad to see some producers coming out with a 10 year old White Port. Of the handful of older white Colheita's and a couple of older White blends I've had they all have been very good to excellent. Granted the market will be a little small at first, at least until word gets out. I would love to see that same for a White Vintage Port.

I could see these barrel aged Whites being a good gateway to producers making a white VP. If people are accepting of aged White's, then it would make sense for them to make a small amount of white VP.

I know there has to be someone that has experimented with making a white VP in the past, probably many many decades ago. I will have to ask around to try and find out. I would be quite curious as to the results.

Oscar,
Have you heard of anyone, or has your family itself, experimented with making a White VP in the past? If so how have they turned out?

I had a white Port today from 1896 and three of us from the group, independently, rated it 99 points. We had a red version from the same vintage which was every bit as good too. Then came a 1863 that was worthy as well, in fact, only the 3rd time in my life I have ever gone with a full bore 100 point score. It was sheer perfection.

Andy Velebil wrote: Oscar,
Have you heard of anyone, or has your family itself, experimented with making a White VP in the past? If so how have they turned out?

Andy, I have been making some research about old experiences to make a white vintage port but nothing came out, either family or friends. This just makes the experiment even more challenging and intriguing.. and probably that we will hardly get something that is worth the effort :|

uncle tom wrote:

I would welcome an opportunity to even taste a white port in my province.

By and large, you havn't missed a lot, but there a few - very few! - aged whites that are surprisingly good.

The great majority of standard whites are really quite horrid! :x

Tom

There are five white ports amazing and one UNIC, from Niepoort, 10y old white is the best 10y white for me; Special Old Reserve from Quinta do Estanho; from Quinta de Santa Eufemia 10y; 20y and 30y old (harvest from 1972) that used to be the Very Old Reserve; and finaly the WONDERFULL 1952 Dalva´s Golden White bottled in 2009, amazing and longer afther taste, honey, died fruits and a genteel acidity... ( it also exists another single harvest white from Krohn 1964 ) but it´s nothing to do with the WONDERFULL 1952 Dalva´s Golden White.

But Goncalo, those are all colheita's or tawny's. We're talking White Vintage Port. I've never even seen or heard of a producer making a White Vintage Port, even though I'm sure someone had tried making some in years past. One day I'd love to try a white Vintage Port just out of curiosity to see how it turned out...good or bad.

So what color would a 50 year old white VP be? The colheitas and tawnies get darker as they draw from the wood, but what about the whites in the bottle? I can't say I'm enough of an oenephile to know, and I just don't drink that much white.

The colheitas and tawnies get darker as they draw from the wood

actually the opposite, they get lighter the longer they spend in wood.

White Colheita's and tawny's are just the opposite. they get more straw colored that turns into a golden brown as they age.

Andy Velebil wrote:

The colheitas and tawnies get darker as they draw from the wood

actually the opposite, they get lighter the longer they spend in wood.

White Colheita's and tawny's are just the opposite. they get more straw colored that turns into a golden brown as they age.

I was referring to the whites getting darker, since that is what this thread is all about. My question is about whites in the bottle, not wood. Do they change? Obviously they can't draw on the wood to turn more golden brown. Will the slight bit of color they have fade, or will a white wine in the bottle look the same after twenty years?

Andy Velebil wrote:But Goncalo, those are all colheita's or tawny's. We're talking White Vintage Port. I've never even seen or heard of a producer making a White Vintage Port, even though I'm sure someone had tried making some in years past. One day I'd love to try a white Vintage Port just out of curiosity to see how it turned out...good or bad.

I also have the same expectation as you Andy, about the evolution of a White Vintage Port.