The difference between Quinta Do Noval and the Nacional?

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:18 am

Alex,

Without wanting to suggest Mr Seeley is being anything ther than honest, this does sound like quite a convenient situation for Noval to be in given the mistique that surrounds Nacional :?

Is it really possible that information like this could have been so completely lost? I wonder if the Van Zeller's would tell the same story given that their historic connection to the Quinta goes back many years before Christian took control of the property?

Derek

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:24 am

I wonder if Roy is including a visit to Christiano van Zeller on his next trip round the Douro? If he is, perhaps we can ask him to raise the subject and see if there is any family mythology that talks about the Nacional parcel.

Knowing some of the history of the way in which AXA was able to opportunistically purchase Quinta do Noval, it would not surprise me at all if there is a gap in the verbal history that the current owners and managers have access to.

Alex

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:04 am

Seems like something to research and find out. Of course I think we can taste the different vines, so Mr. Seeley should send us each numerous bottles going back to the beginning of the Quinta....for research purposes only

Dad (aka Roy), its time to return from your vacation...the children need help with their homework

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:22 am

Dad, if you are on your way home I want you to know that I didn't break the Avatars - it was Andy

.....and some of the other boys with names beginning with A have been threatening to shoot me if I don't hand over my Nacional 63

Derek

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:56 am

Did not dad

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:13 am

Alex,

If we are talking about the pre 1925, I find it incredulous that the new owner doesn't know what was going on before then. I'm sure there must be some Portugese folk in there 80's who can remember what their fathers said!
Without knowing enough on the subject, I suspect, like Derek, a mild case of selective amnesia. I suspect that there is nothing special, and he doesn't want to confirm that. Like I've stated previously about Guiness not using water from the Liffy, but being happy that the myth continues, why stop romanticism and mystique, when the people enjoy it. Dont let a simple thing like truth get in the way.
Love the story about the pigs urine. Even if thats not true, it should be! :)

Alan

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:20 pm

Alan,

There is a story here that you may not be aware of. AXA (Christian Seeley's employer) purchase Quinta do Noval from the Van Zellar family in the early 90's. The Van Z's had held the Quinta for many years and the sale was the result of a family dispute. It is highly likely that the purchase by AXA resulted in a complete change of staff at the Quinta and the Van Z's are unlikely to have passed on any helpful information about the history of the property or its wines. It is entirely plausible that Christian Seeley knows nothing about the history of the Quinta in the early 1900's.

Some of the Van Zellars are still around (Chritsiano owns/runs Quinta do Vale Danna Maria) and the information may still exist within the family. One day we may get the answer we are looking for

Derek

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:22 pm

Andy V. wrote:Did not dad

Yes he did, and he had a girlfriend stay over one night and they were drinking your port

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:03 pm

Derek,
If you were the head of a thriving business like this one, wouldn't you make it your business to find out such facts, for when the trade or tourist requires entertaining?
But fair enough, if you and Alex are happy, I'll withdraw my suggestion of selective amnesia and give him the benefit of the doubt. (I'm sure he'll sleep easier tonight!)
But the information must be out there, we just haven't aquired it yet.
Alan

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:18 pm

Alan,

You misunderstand, I quite believe that Christian Seeley does not know the history - I have met him and believe him to be an honest man. However, I do think it is convenient for the owner's of the most expensive and mysterious VP on earth to be able to claim plausible deniability as to why this plot of land produces such fabulous juice. Why would they want to tell the story? Other's could then copy the formula and potentially produce an equivalent wine

Something worth thinking about is that the Nacional story started around 70 years ago, long before AXA/Seeley took control. Why did the previous owners not tell the story for the 60+ years before that? It's a bit like the secret ingredient in Coca Cola - no-one knows what it is or whether or not it actually exists

Derek

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:32 pm

Derek,

you'd make a good politician.
You are sure Mr Seeley is a good, true, honest man and want to make that clear.
Its just that you dont believe what he said!.....(Due respect.

)

I think I understand your thrust, though. It would be unfair to cast aspersions, and life is full of such nuances.

Alan

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:34 pm

I don't have the nick-name of Alistair Campbell for nothing

Jay Powers · Post by **Jay Powers** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:17 pm

When we visited Noval, I believe we talked around this topic a little. I recall that Christian said that they were experimenting with investigations on the use of ungrafted vines, and could they get them to grow somewhere else in the quinta? And that they had some ideas but were not ready to commit/release them? Does anyone else recall this or did all that Nacional go to my head?

Jay

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:16 am

Jay,

I also recall this conversation but from memory the focus was on trying to expand the ungrafted vines into other areas of the Quinta rather than analysing why they are able to grow in the existing Nacional parcels.

......and, yes, the Nacional did go to your head if I recall

Derek

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:13 am

Yes, IIRC, we were told in the past they had planted the NN vines on other parts of the property and they just did not grow properly (as had other Producers in years past...Warre's, IIRC). The reason why they would not grow either at Noval or at other places, was not said. However, the NN vines have been extensively studied, where the existing vines are, but as with any sucessful business practice (like the secret coca-cola formula) those results are not released.

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:36 am

Pssst! (looks round cautiously, before divulging)

Its Pigs Urine !!!!

(disappears back into the shadows, from wence he came)

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:00 am

Maybe they use the Frango poop and pigs urine as fertilizer just for the NN grapes....maybe that is the secret ingrediant...they are both quite close to the vines.

(disclaimer: If Mr. Seeley is reading this, we are only just kidding, please don't throw us in the chicken coop or the press machine...a full NN lagar is ok though

)

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:35 pm

I've been doing some reading on this.

Quinta do Noval was purchased by A.J. da Silva in 1920. According to Richard Mayson (Port and the Douro) he "fumigated" the Nacional parcel before replanting with ungrafted vines. The remainder of the Quinta was re-planted with American root-stock and grafted vines around the same time.

A.J. da Sila is Christiano van Zellar's Great Grandfather - this means that the generation which sold the Quinta to AXA in 1993 was only 3 generations away from those who created the secret of Nacional.

It is not at all plausable that a "secret" could have been lost in relation to such an historic and fabled parcel of vines in only 3 generations. However, it is entirely plausable that this secret could be "lost" in a Restrictive Covenant in a Sale and Purchase Agreement :?

My view is that, if Christiano van Zellar has not already offered up this information then it would be inappropriate to ask the question.

Derek

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:48 pm

Derek,
I followed all of that post, with interest- and understanding, until the conclusion.
Why cant you ask the question. He's at liberty to explain the truth, tell us that he hasn't got a clue, none of our business, or more intriegingly, a shrug or a wink, that would indicate the knowledge is out there, he's just not ready to share it....yet!
Alan

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:57 pm

Alan,

Part of my life involves managing corporate aquisitions. It is normal that the contract which transfers ownership of a company from one party to the other will include restricitons on what the seller can and cannot do with information relating to the company after the sale is completed. These restrictions are legally binding and often carry substantial penalties for breach of contract.

Imagine f Mr Coca Cola sold his company to McDonalds - would Ronald McDonald be happy if Mr Cola subsequently told the world what the secret ingredient in CC was? No, so Ronald would ensure Mr Cola signed a piece of paper saying "if I tell the secret I will give you all your money back"

I have no clue as to whether or not this is the situation with AXA and CvZ - but if it is, we will never know :?

Derek