Alan C's Late April Rant!!!

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Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Not having been able to log in for a few days, I missed being able to respond to this in a timely fashion Tom...
uncle tom wrote:Maybe I should get into the wine export business...

..if I sent a single old bottle by air mail to Canada, would your customs officials freak out - or nod it through?

Tom
PS Cost of packing and sending is about 55 Canadian $
I can tell you right now, a single old bottle may slip through without even being detected. We have a two bottle "limit" that is "duty and tax free" IF we are actually traveling and bringing it across the border ourselves. Not 100% sure of the ramifications of having it shipped... it might be seized, it might be rejected, it might just be taxed. I'm not sure - I am doing a bit of research and should be able to let you know. I would definitely be interested in such a transaction Tom... once I figure out whether this precious old bottle would make it to me safe and sound or whether it would be seized, etc, I will let you know.

Most likely all the customs guys would do is simply smile and say "hand over your wallet boy... you're about to get credit-card-raped!" :?

Todd
Jay Powers
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Post by Jay Powers »

So

First of all, I like mature port. I like it better than young port, just as I prefer mature Bordeaux to young Bordeaux. I agree that 1985 is an exception pricing wise, and have more than a few cases for that reason. I can often get it for similar prices to the 2003's or a little more, and have done so. I drink the Warres and Dows 1985 as a "go-to" port. However this does not apply to anything older than 85, and certainly not the Grahams or Fonseca 85's which may be the top of the vintage. No 1985 Martinez to be found anywhere in the US, contigous or otherwise.

Tom, please do get into the import business.

And I do rely on, and greatly respect the opinions of some of the pundits, Roy (whom I have partaken directly with) and Broadbent in particular, along with members of this forum, particularly those I have shared port with. Of course Roy and Broadbent do not always agree which puts me into a little bit of a quandry :?

In the US, there are no port cellars handed down. I did not taste vintage port untill I was 35. You would be much more likely to find a Madeira cellar handed down, but unfortunately, I was not one of those lucky few.

So, what do you do if you find yourself a big fan of VP, but don't have the experience of tasting VP when young and following it until it's Mature? You try and correct the situation.

When I'm 80, god willing, I want to "be" Broadbent or Roy, and look back and remember "I had this on release, and it was great then and it's even better now". I do not want to do this vicariously (although I'm open to all pointers!), but want to have the experience myself.

Just as I would want to taste the 2004 or 2005 Bordeaux before I ordered futures, I would want to taste the 2003 Ports before I buy a case. And the 1994's as well. And the 1985's. If I had never had a 1992 Port before, should I buy a case based on a note? Well, maybe (depending on whose note it was), but ideally I would taste it first. Vesuvio remains an example in my mind, should I have bought a case of Vesuvio before I tasted it? Well, for 1994 probably, but for 1989? How would you know?

Alan, how many young VP's (post 1985) and how many "old" VP's (pre 1985) did you base your "rant on"? :D :D

Jay
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Alan C.
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Post by Alan C. »

Scott,

I also apologise for my heavy sarcasm. :oops: This whole thread was started 'tongue in cheek' by me. Yes I believe in the point I make. No I dont really mind you guys drinking them young, but I'd rather you didn't. The clue was in the title. I'm not important enough to trumpet my opinion as though I am, and so it was titled 'Alan C's Late April Rant' Late April also suggesting I'm always Ranting.
I did find it a shame that you not only thought I was wrong, didn't get the humour and also felt the need to censure those who found it worthy of disscussioin. Needless to say, your later exchanges, showed a much friendlier, erudite person who was big enough to re-phrase. Well done, which inspired me to regret my sarcasm. Go and grab your mate and let him see how the thread developed.

Jay.

In truth not enough. If you have read my reply to Scott, you will more understand(If you needed to) where this thread came from. I've just found, in my limited experience anything from 2000 onwards to be harsh, gluggy(That means thick in texture to me),crudely fruitish and generally poor. If you compare it to the balanced subtlties, and refinement of a normal VP, and you know were its heading, I just suggested we leave the young alone, concentrate on lesser ports that are not developing, or VP's we can afford, that are in their drinking window.
If you live were the price difference is significant, I completely sympathise, but my experiences, again although limited, have been like Tom and Derek. Maybe I should feel very lucky on that score.

Another Thread I should start should be,

For you guys with a healthy experience of younger VP's, Which would you recommend to show that it may be young, but its still a fine drink, and would likely convince others that is was well worth opening!

But I'd only try the winner of that thread, in a spirit of goodwill and compromise. As I do believe in the main thrust of 'Leave the Buggers alone! :D :D :D

Alan
Jay Powers
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Post by Jay Powers »

Alan C wrote:
For you guys with a healthy experience of younger VP's, Which would you recommend to show that it may be young, but its still a fine drink, and would likely convince others that is was well worth opening!
Alan
Alan

In a couple of words, Niepoort 2003, and maybe Quinta do Canis 2000

But going deeper than that, I am not offended in any way (and hope I have not offended), and find serious back and forth on this forum to be a good thing. Your post has drawn me out more than usual, and judging by the number of replys is interesting to many people.......

But I'm coming to your house to enjoy your aged ports next week :D

Jay
Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Alan! You wouldn't be wanting to TRY one of these young buggers, would you?!?! That shows tremendous progression in your thinking... welcome to the Dark Side of the Force :twisted:

In all seriousness, the 2003 VPs may start shutting down in a year or so, so it is getting really close to the time to put them away for a 20 year nap. If you want to try a good one that is young that I have tried recently is the 2003 Noval. I have a TN on it on the main port thread... It seems it was likely BEST between 4-8 hours and continued to show well until around 24-28 hours of decanter time. After that the alcohol became a bit pronounced and distracted from the huge fruit notes.

Come on Alan... you know you want to!!! :D

Todd
Luc Gauthier
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Post by Luc Gauthier »

tpettinger wrote:Alan! You wouldn't be wanting to TRY one of these young buggers, would you?!?! That shows tremendous progression in your thinking... welcome to the Dark Side of the Force :twisted:

In all seriousness, the 2003 VPs may start shutting down in a year or so, so it is getting really close to the time to put them away for a 20 year nap. If you want to try a good one that is young that I have tried recently is the 2003 Noval. I have a TN on it on the main port thread... It seems it was likely BEST between 4-8 hours and continued to show well until around 24-28 hours of decanter time. After that the alcohol became a bit pronounced and distracted from the huge fruit notes.

Come on Alan... you know you want to!!! :D

Todd
Beware ,
Roy is my father . . .
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
Luc Gauthier
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Post by Luc Gauthier »

Derek Turnbull wrote:Scott,

I just noticed that I inadvertantly accused you of being Canadian - can you ever forgive me, please? :?

Derek
If It wasn't for the fact that I'm a québéquois , I'd be furious , if not , down right pertubed . . .

Luc
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
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Al B.
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Post by Al B. »

I'm slowly catching up with the messages I missed while I was away in foreign (and port-free) lands. Boy, did this thread stir up a debate - and a very interesting one too!

I occasionally drink young bottles of vintage port. In the last 18 months I have drunk 21 bottles at less than 5 years of age, 34 others of 10 years or less and 49 more with 11-20 years of age.

Why do I choose to do this?

First and foremost because I enjoy young wines from time to time. I like that up-front fruitiness on an occasion. Yes, I could get it from a Ruby or Reserve or LBV, but I also enjoy getting it sometimes from a full blown Vintage Port with all the additional structure and complexity that has - even in a young VP.

But also because I want to slake my curiosity and see if I can spot a difference between a wine I tried last year and one that I have just poured. Surprisingly, I can. The Noval 2000, for example, is showing very differently now than it did 12 months ago when it was really closed up.

And finally, I choose to do this because as much as I would wish that the older wines are the only ones I would drink, I cannot find or replace some of the best wines in my cellar. Every bottle of Croft 1945 that I drink is one less in the world. Every bottle of Noval 2003 that I drink is a small increase in the value of the bottles that I still have and can replace when I want to.

If you are serious about being willing to try a young VP to see if you enjoy it, I would second Jay's recommendation of the Noval 2003. This really is an excellent wine and is in top (young VP) form right now. Alternatively, I would suggest the Vesuvio 1994, which is a fabulous wine and will go on being fabulous for very many years to come.

Alex
Last edited by Al B. on Wed May 09, 2007 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

Alex,

I have arranged for an official from the UK Passport Agency to meet you at Southampton Docks this evening where your Passport will be removed from your person and you will board a prison ship which will take you to a remote island in the New World (I think it is called Manhatan) where you will serve out the rest of your days drinking young port with your fellow outlaw's.

You are permitted to take 1 mixed 6 pack of Vesuvio with you which you can use to barter with the natives for food and shelter. The remainder of your cellar will be split equally between Tom, Alan, KillerB and myself so that we may gorge ourselves on your mature bottles and increase our hoards of youngsters ready for drinking in our old age.

Derek
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Alan C.
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Post by Alan C. »

Alex,

As you have read this thread I dont have to explain the main points and the semi-serious nature of it all. But I do feel compelled to rebut a point you made.
Why do you think the glories of a 45 are so rare today? Its not because we're all popping down the shops and drinking them every weekend. Its because wellmeaning folk from the 40's and 50's, like yourself, decided not to drink the other stuff around and knocked off the young VP of the day. Thus denying our generation of this drink, which might have been more freely available, when its in its prime!
In my world, we pass on the legacy of the Vintage Ports being made now to our childrens generation. We have our current drinking window Ports, and we all have a myriad of lesser Ports to drink between the 'Special' VP's.

You've got me going again!!! :D

Alan.
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Al B.
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Post by Al B. »

Alan,

By lesser ports, I assume you mean ports like the Warre 1991 or the Fonseca-Guimaraens 2001? Are these the ports that you would prefer me to drink whilst waiting for my Croft 1945s to mature?

:roll:

Alex

PS - this note is written in exactly the same tone and intent as your first note that started this whole, rather fun, debate. Ie. not too seriously, but with a serious meaning. I'm happy drinking as many young ports as I drink mature ports 'cos I like them and don't see why I should have to make do with ruby port for a young fruit drink when I have plenty of young VP that is just bursting at the seams to be let out.
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Alan,

Aiyiyiyieee, here we go again! ;)

You know I would prefer drinking the older port to the younger (more readily available) stuff. I can, however, rebuke your point a slight bit:
Alan C wrote:Why do you think the glories of a 45 are so rare today? Its not because we're all popping down the shops and drinking them every weekend. Its because wellmeaning folk from the 40's and 50's, like yourself, decided not to drink the other stuff around and knocked off the young VP of the day. Thus denying our generation of this drink, which might have been more freely available, when its in its prime!
In my world, we pass on the legacy of the Vintage Ports being made now to our childrens generation. We have our current drinking window Ports, and we all have a myriad of lesser Ports to drink between the 'Special' VP's.
You never know when you are going to leave this world. As a police officer, I am sure you know the dangers that can lurk around every corner and as such, you have to face these risks head on every single work day of your life. Some of us take life for granted and never realize that we could be gone tomorrow.

The point is that if you do not occasionally take the time to drink a "younger" VP now and again, you may never realize the glory that is there, available at your hands now. Certainly these ports will be better in 30-40 years - I will not debate that point. What if you had lived in the 1930-40s and had cases of the Noval '31 ready to drink when they turned 30 and you (just pulling a number out of my head for an example) turn 60. Now what happens if you die on the night before your 60th birthday - never having sampled one bottle of the greatness that the '31 Noval of legend has become. THAT is a tragedy.

I'm really not saying drink cases and cases of young stuff... not at all. If I buy a case of 2003 for myself, I will likely sample one young and still have 11 to go. (Or better, buy a case and one or two odd bottles so that the full case can be preserved and I have two samples from which to draw comparisons from.) But if I die at the age of 40 (2016 AD) with only 13 years of maturation for the 2003 line, I would never have gotten a chance to sample the greatness that the 2003s apparently offer.

Yes, it is a tad selfish. I am buying a case for my kids so that they too will have a case of their own for when it is mature... but if I buy a case for myself, you're damn rights I'm going to try one, cuz if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I want to die knowing that I have tried something that may one day be one of "the greats." And if I DON'T get hit by a bus and live to be 60, I'll be sipping the 2003 lineup when they are fully mature and be able to look back and compare between the young, the mid-aged and the truly aged.

Yes, every bottle drank means it becomes more and more rarified, but if we left ALL VP for 30 years minimum, it just means that the rarification process would occur all at once, and usually only to a privilidged few, the wealthy who can afford to snap up the cases and cases that would be made available on the port's 30th anniversary. We would all gorge ourselves of 12 bottles of the 30 yr old VP in a couple of months or a year rather than enjoying the port during its aging process along the way. In the end, it will get drank, and when it occurs doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion... yours obviously is fairly closed-minded for an OLD drinking window (and I can understand your passions on the subject. My own view is just as passionate the other way... doesn't mean either of us is wrong. I respect your right to have that opinion.) I try to look at this as a learning journey. I can't afford many older bottles, so I enjoy trying a few now and again that may not be as mature as they will be. I may not be getting AS enjoyable an experience than if the ports were 30 yrs of bottle-age, but I certainly enjoy the experience, regardless of the age. (On that note, if I die tomorrow with not a single "Aged" bottle under my belt, I will be an extremely sad spirit that will likely come back to haunt your arse and persuade you, as Scrooge was persuaded by his ghosts, to enjoy a port NOW, no matter its age! ;))


On that note, Alex, you are welcome here with open arms if you do get 'deported' :D But don't leave the bastards any port. Take it all with you or blow it up before you leave! :twisted:

ok.. my rant = over :blah: :blah: :blah:
Todd
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

tpettinger wrote: On that note, Alex, you are welcome here with open arms if you do get 'deported' :D But don't leave the bastards any port. Take it all with you or blow it up before you leave! :twisted:
Too late - all of Alex assets have already been seazed by MI31 - a little known branch of the UK secret service dedicated to the preservation of traditional values. Alex's family have disowned him and are now throwing rotten veg at him as he makes the lonely walk to Southampton in leg-irons and a gimp mask carrying his 6 pack of Vesuvio.

Derek
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Al B.
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Post by Al B. »

...closed-minded OLD drinking .......
Isn't it great what you can do with a quote taken out of context?

And those who are concerned for my welfare and the welfare of my cellar, I thank you but can assure you that as a precaution against forced deportation I have locked myself into my cellar and am determindly drinking my way through every young VP that I have in order to ensure that I am never tempted to touch any ever again.

Once I have finished my task I will emerge, like a butterfly from a cocoon, with only fine aged and mature vintage port to my name.

Actually, in all seriousness I firmly believe in the right to choose. There are those who would wish to only drink mature VP, there are those who like nothing more than young fruit bombs and then there are the majority who lie somewhere between these two extremes. There is space in FTLOP for all of us, and all are welcome.

Alex
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Post by Scott Anaya »

Alan et al.,

Since I was in on the debate earlier, I thought I'd update my position as i realize that I am closer to Alans opinion than I originally thought, or at least my buying and drinking strategy will one day cross with that of Alans, ie drinking mainly mature VP's. As previously posted, the scenario below is the quandry I am in given my limited resources in purchasing VP. As of the last few years I have been employing strategy #2. Yes, sorry UK folks, I knock one of these down while it is young, since like Alex, sometimes an LBV doesn't do the trick. But the reason I buy the three of them is so that I am actually building a cellar of ageworthy VP's that I will get to enjoy when they mature and will allow me to be completely on Alan's side of the debate.

hmmm...maybe it's your Queen Mothers visit that has me making peace? I mean she got ol Georgey Boy to wear a white tailed Tux! :D


Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes good point. But like I am saying, with limited resources do I......

#1) Buy the one '70 to enjoy this weekend for $175

#2) Buy three 97's, one to enjoy this weekend, the others in a few decades for $155

#3) Buy three 80's to enjoy over the next few years for $180

According to my wifes budget you get to only choose one.
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Alan C.
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Post by Alan C. »

Gentlemen,

You all make good points. Wouldn't it be great if we could all gather in a large room with leather chesterfields, and a handful of exclusive Ports each. We could start off gently, enter a period of cut and thrust, begin to fight ones corner with emotion and vigour, before remembering we all like and respect each other and starting to talk utter rubbish before declaring undying loyalty...before forgetting all about it over breakfast in the morning! What an offline. :D

A few minor points.
Alex, by lesser ports I meant all ports below VP level. All our ordinary tipples.
Scott. Keep moving towards the light. We're keeping a warm seat ready. :D Our Queen Mother died a few years ago. You have our reigning Monarch keeping George W in Gaffs!
Todd. For the first time, and I could be wrong, I detected you are defending the right to try the occasional young VP whilst protecting the rest. Good on yer! A big step forward. :D
Derek. Apart from your June Tasting suggestions, I suspect you were part of Russell Crowes Army, when at the start of the Gladiator film, he commanded his army....'Unleash Hell!'
My kind of Guy.

Alan
Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Alex,
Yeah okay, maybe "closed-minded OLD drinking" is a bit too strong. :oops: I thought I had actually replaced that text with something else a little more... er.. tawny ;)

Alan,
You are correct, I do believe in drinking the VP old and mature. I am positive that it will provide me greater drinking pleasure in that state than as a "young fruit bomb." Nevertheless, I do sympathize with Scott, who has limited selection and budget in order to drink one now and hold the rest for later.

(It is not the first time I am coming around to that line of thinking... but it the choice I have had to make due to limited selection and resources. Don't get me wrong - if I ever win the lottery, I will be moving to London on a part time basis, raiding all the old cellars of port that come up for auction, heading to Tom's to determine which old ports he has that he will sell to me) and then hopping back on my private plane to deliver it all home to my professional cellar! :)) Until then, sorry Derek and Alan, you will have to put up with some infanticide TNs from me still! :)

The good news is that, like Scott, I am trying to buy several of each and hold all but one for "later."

Derek,
Given Alex's drinking ability (perceive from his 'posts and boasts') MI31 better come with a LOT of firepower if they expect to raid his cellar! :)

Note to self: build secret escape tunnel to the room where I will keep all the GOOD STUFF and reinforce it wil bullet and bomb-proof doors for when the Brits come to take me away to the gallows for repeated violations of infanticide!!! :)


Alan, you are correct - we all are here for the same thing - we all love port and are usually quite civilized in our discussions... I apologize if my "close-minded OLD drinking window" was taken out of context - I guess it was meant as a ha-ha, but semi-serious - much like this entire thread, but after Alex quoted the post, I see that it may not have been taken a bit more serious than I meant it...

Todd

Edit to add:

P.S. If I do with that lottery that I keep dreaming about, the first thing I will do is fly to England with the best bottles that i can find here, buy more there, and hold an FTLOP offline. Ok, that'll be the 2nd thing I do. First, I really gotta appease the wife and pay off the mortgage and have her quit her job!!! :D

The "cover" for said offline will be simple - one bottle of whatever your best is. I'll make sure the rest is the best... I understand I may be able to pick up something like that in England a bit more readily than in Canada!!! ;)

T
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Al B.
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Post by Al B. »

Todd,

I should 'fess up here. I took your quote way out of context and also did a "tabloid edit" on it. What you actually said was
everyone is entitled to their opinion... yours obviously is fairly closed-minded for an OLD drinking window
which is (in my opinion) actually quite a reasonable and balanced comment.

I just thought - for amusement only - that I would remove the context and carry out the edit that you can see.

But I also want to say publicly that I thank everyone for their contribution to what has been one of the liveliest threads on the forum for a while. If only we could round this off with an offline where we compared the 1945 vintage to the 2005 vintage and agreed with each other that we would not touch another bottle of the 2005 vintage until 2025.

Alex
Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Now of everything that has been brought up in this thread Alex - THAT is the best idea yet!!! :)

You UK guys want a field trip to Canada? We could arrange to go to the mountains of Jasper/Banff - best place in the world during the summer - still snow on the top peaks of the highest mountains with a ":reasonable" temperature down lower! :)

(I gotta get a job that allows me MORE travel thru the UK - I simply HAVE to meet some of you in person one day!!! )

Todd
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

Alan C wrote:Gentlemen,

You all make good points.

Alan
I object - I can't remember making a good point at any stage during this thread :evil:

I'm coming over there to Unleash Hell :P

Derek
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