Portuguese Cheese--Serra de Estrela

[Moses Botbol]

I'm sorry Moses, but if it's sold in this country (USA) under the DOC name it 'needs' to be the 'correct cheese' (meeting DOC standards, including labeling), in the same way that if you buy a CD, it 'needs' to not be a pirate copy. My understanding is that exactly the same laws are applicable (intellectual property rights).

If I went to Portugal and bought Serra Estrela, does it have the DOC stamp on it? Is it possible to export it without a stamp and just call it cheese? It's the same cheese. Just like a rebranding of port bottle for a store. The juice is still the manufacturers, whether the label says whatever.

Someone may buy port in the US and export it with a generic Ruby Port label on the bottle; the insides is still '85 Graham or '70 Taylor. The label says just Ruby Port. Importing the cheese as non DOC may be cheaper even if it is a violation. A store could violate regulations while not trying to deceive their customer.

I am not inferring that what you bought in this instance is authentic, just showing an example.

[Glenn E.]

Sure, Moses, but your example is turned around.

In this case, the store is telling me that the bottle is a 1963 Noval Nacional, but there's no Selo de Guarantia on the bottle. It might be legit, but without the Selo it's hard to say for sure.

We've been sold cheese at a price commensurate with real Serra da Estrela, but there's no DOC label on it to ensure that it is in fact real Serra da Estrela. In this particular case I'd say the odds are good that it is legit - it is otherwise the same package as they've always sold from a producer who can and does sell real Serra da Estrela - but without the DOC label you cannot legally call the cheese by that name.

[John Trombley]

I think Moses' point is even if the CD seal and little hologram has been removed, it could still be the real deal. Or it might not be.

The problem is that the presence of the seal and hologram IS PART OF THE CURRENT DEFINITION of the DOC. So selling something without the seal would most likely be viewed as a contravention of property rights of the Portuguese government. Again, it's not just the chemical composition of the cheese we're talking about here, it's how the cheese is legally allowed to be marketed.

[John Trombley]

I'm sorry Moses, but if it's sold in this country (USA) under the DOC name it 'needs' to be the 'correct cheese' (meeting DOC standards, including labeling), in the same way that if you buy a CD, it 'needs' to not be a pirate copy. My understanding is that exactly the same laws are applicable (intellectual property rights).

If I went to Portugal and bought Serra Estrela, does it have the DOC stamp on it? Is it possible to export it without a stamp and just call it cheese? It's the same cheese. Just like a rebranding of port bottle for a store. The juice is still the manufacturers, whether the label says whatever.

Someone may buy port in the US and export it with a generic Ruby Port label on the bottle; the insides is still '85 Graham or '70 Taylor. The label says just Ruby Port. Importing the cheese as non DOC may be cheaper even if it is a violation. A store could violate regulations while not trying to deceive their customer.

I am not inferring that what you bought in this instance is authentic, just showing an example.

Very definitely, it could not be sold in Portugal without the DOC labeling, if 'Serra de Estrela' was used in advertising or sales. That's the primary market, after all. So too in any EU country. The extension to the USA is by way of respecting the property rights of the Portuguese government, and of course the EU community.

Not all cheese in Europe needs to have an appellation, but if it is sold as having an appellation, it must meet all the requirements of the law. If this had been sold as 'Serra' (tout court) cheese, that would have been OK. There is no such appellation under EU law.

[Roy Hersh]

John,

Thanks for weighing back in on this topic and I'd wholeheartedly agree with you re: the appellation controls. I am going to investigate more when I head over there in a few weeks.

[John Trombley]

I just received this email from Paul Kemp at iGourmet. Several of you may want to take advantage of the offer of a $60 gift card in lieu of a refund. It's OK with me and I will. If anyone else who purchased wants to do so, I'll pass along the email if you write me at blvddad@aol.com

Best, John Trombley

John,

I hope you received my previous email explaining the delay on my part in these communications. I certainly hope you don’t misinterpret this delay as a lack of urgency on my part to resolve the issue.

Anyhow, after further research, and several conversations with Portuguese and Spanish colleagues, I do accept that we, and my importer of this cheese, have made an error, and I have acted immediately to rectify this situation. Our customer’s satisfaction is a top priority, and It certainly wasn’t our intention to mislead you or other purchasers of this cheese. I do accept responsibility for not catching the fact that our supplier had switched the cheese they imported from this company without notifying us, and have new procedures in place that I’m confident will prevent this being repeated.

I am forwarding you a $60 gift card, and will be happy to provide this to any other customers on the forum who made a similar purchase and were unsatisfied, so please feel free to pass along my direct email. John, I always welcome feedback from our customers, especially one as passionate and informed as yourself. Should you ever want any cheese suggestions, or have any other questions and comments, I hope you would have no hesitation in contacting me directly.



Best Regards,



Paul Kemp

Director of Product Development

paul@igourmet.com

[Andy Velebil]

John,
glad to hear they took the time to look into the matter and resolve..and take steps to help prevent something like this from happening in the future. Kudos to them

[Moses Botbol]

Cool. Sounds like a good place to do business with.

[Derek T.]

I have been passing over this thread since it started thinking "what on earth can these guys find to talk about in a thread named after cheese?" - I finally cracked and had to open the thread and now I see what all the fuss was about. Well done John

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

John,

Great work. Thanks for sharing the email.

In past years on the Squires' site, I have always said that 'it is not how great the retailer is when everything is going right that really counts, it is how they resolve an honest mistake that separates the good ones from the great ones.' Looks like Paul from IGourmet took his time to find out the reality of what they were selling and then went out of hiw way to make this right, for everyone here. Your patience and fortitude in this effort is to be commended, not only for the outcome ... but for helping to educate us all about the Serra too.

[John Trombley]

For the sake of history (smile), here is my prior correspondence on this matter:

Dear Mr. Kemp,



Thanks for your reply to my stated concern. Let me review what my understanding is of this matter, as this may serve to clarify what is under discussion.



The European Union has several similar standards systems that are called 'Certificates of Protected Origins', the first being, as I understand, the Appellation Controlée laws applicable to geographically-delimited French wines that have been in use since the 1920s. Since then, certain special food and drink products that have particular desirable characteristics referable to their geographic origin have received similar protection in several other countries of Europe. The D.O.P. system is one of the Portuguese delimitations under E.U. law; it's applicable to certain foods originating in that country.



The philosophical basis of these standards is the idea that it would be valuable to protect a particular style or quality of product that requires the human skills, physical conditions, and raw materials available from within a delimited region, and that are susceptible to misuse by reductions in quality and adulterations by those having an economic motivation for doing so.



This means that for legal and practical purposes, I believe that there is no such thing as a 'non-DOP version' of Serra de Estrela, since any cheese sold under that name must meet the standard. If this product is sold as a Quiejo Serra ('Mountain Cheese'), however, it would not have to meet the standards. What you offer for sale seems to me to be the latter. There would be only general sanitary restrictions on what could be marketed as a 'Mountain Cheese'. It goes without saying that the EU regulations would consider the offering of Quiejo Serra for sale as Quiejo Serra de Estrela a prima-facie contravention of the D.O.C. regulations.



The United States Custom Service, I understand, has become involved in enforcement of this matter because it considers these demarcations as intellectual property rights, and a particular item that is misbranded as belonging under such a property right when it is not can be seized upon attempted importation. Of course, the cheese we are discussing was not misbranded upon importation, but there is a question of how the rights of the producers of this cheese are being respected by those who sell it in this country. I'd think that any importer , wholesaler, or retailer, who does not honor the D.O.P. system in this country might be creating a legal liability for itself if the producer's association chooses to bring suit for infringement. However, I'm not a lawyer.



The honoring of such standards are a protection not only for the producers but also, inevitably, for we consumers. Therefore I hold it not in the best interests of consumers that importers sell a product, claiming it to meet a demarcation standard, if in fact it does not.



Careful review of the product I purchased shows several perceived differences from the European Union standard for Serra de Estrela (D.O.P.) cheese (see http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 014:EN:PDF, compare http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... US229US232), including organoleptic (sensory), size, weight, and labeling. If you need details concerning these differences, I can supply them, but I would hope that you checked these standards before you offered this cheese for sale under that designation and noticed the same differences.



I would think that at least you would want to make this right with me financially by returning my purchase price and shipping charges, or shipping me a cheese that meets the standards of the D.O.C., since the cost of this cheese was substantial and the quality not up to what I expected. Perhaps you might like to explain to the conferees on the forum For the Love of Port where exactly we are now in this discussion (http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopfo ... &sk=t&sd=a). I would rather you responded to the forum first, before I did, but if not, I intend to post my own findings on that forum, at least. I have alerted my friends there of our continuing conversation.



Thanks for your respectful discussion of this matter.



Best wishes,

John Trombley



In a message dated 3/4/2009 1:15:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, paul@igourmet.com writes:

Dear John,

Thanks for your email regarding our Serra De Estrella. After some research of my own, I can confirm that the only cheese this particular producer makes is indeed Serra De Estrella. I visited their website and contacted them directly to confirm this.

(http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... US229US232)



I also received this response to my questions from our importer (see below). The heart of the issue appears to be that the producer does not label the non-DOP version for export as Serra, which has undoubtedly led to this confusion. Unfortunately many European producers are unaware that their cheeses have such devoted followers here in the US, and assume that the label listing the farm and area are sufficient.



John, we welcome all feedback from our customers, and naturally appreciate the word of mouth support for this product on the forums. I want to assure you that we are dedicated to bringing our customers the highest quality and best value products we can find, be they directly from the producers or through our importing partners. Having been in the cheese importing business for over three generations, we remain astutely aware of how important it is to our customers to bring them genuine products that we stand 100% behind.



Please feel free to contact me directly with any further questions you may have relating to this or any other item, and let me know if you come across other great cheeses that you’d like to see offered here on igourmet.com



Sincerely,



Paul Kemp

Director of Product Development

paul@igourmet.com

570-602-3800 x233






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joyce Kahn [mailto:Jkahn@thecheeseworks.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:08 PM
To: Paul Kemp
Cc: Julie Koenig
Subject: [!! SPAM] FW: igourmet order # 73640115-1



Hi Paul



With regard to Serra de Estrella - we have only had one cheese maker ( Casa Matias) since we began the Portuguese program - therefore, I know that you have not received any cheese from another dairy



There are two Serra de Estrella cheeses available from this cheese maker: Casa Matias

1. One is the DOP Serra - this carries the name of the cheese on the label

2. The other is not DOP Serra - but is made from the same farm milk and in the same region - but it doesn’t say Serra on the label

Please see attached for a picture of the labels



We used to carry the DOP version - but are now stocking only the non-DOP



What you have is definitely Serra - but the non DOP version - but as you can see from the attached, the dairy assures you that it comes from the same milk and region as the DOP



Obviously, the DOP version is more expensive, and Portuguese cheeses are expensive at the start, so to keep the price down we elected to get the very same cheese without the DOP designation on the label - which is an extra cost



You can be assured that you have a great cheese









Thank you



Joyce Kahn

The CheeseWorks Ltd

247 Margaret King Avenue

Ringwood, New Jersey 07456

(800) 962-1220


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Julie Koenig
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:42 PM
To: Joyce Kahn
Subject: FW: igourmet order # 73640115-1







Julie Koenig



The Cheeseworks

247 Margaret King Ave.

Ringwood NJ 07456

800-962-1220

FAX 973 962-6886




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Kemp [mailto:paul@igourmet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 2:49 PM
To: Julie Koenig
Subject: FW: igourmet order # 73640115-1



Julie – here is my customer’s original email - thanks






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BLVDDAD@aol.com [mailto:BLVDDAD@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:10 PM
To: CService
Subject: Re: igourmet order # 73640115-1

Dear Margaret,



I wonder...How do you know it's the same cheese you've always imported? Is this the only cheese that company makes that could possibly be confused with it? I understand that there are similar cheeses made in Portugal by this method that aren't appellation Serra de Estrela, but which are simply called 'mountain cheeses'. (quiejos serra). If this same thing happened in the wine industry with an appellation item, the product in question would at least be segregated from sale until the results of the investigation were known.



I was the person who called attention to your stocking of this cheese to the Internet forum For The Love of Port, and that, I understand, resulted in several sales of this cheese to individuals around the country who are participants of that forum. I would like to be able to reassure those who also purchased this cheese at my recommendation. If the documentation is not in order, I would of course go ahead and file a complaint with the appropriate authorities.



Best wishes,

John Trombley



In a message dated 2/25/2009 10:03:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, cservice@igourmet.com writes:

Hello and thank you for your email.

I checked the label on the serra da estrela we have in stock and see that the supply we received does not include that name on the outer edge as it always has, as you pointed out. However, my product manager says this is the same cheese from the same company, and the same label that we have always gotten. We were not notified of any change, so I'm not sure why it doesn't say serra da estrela. I appreciate you calling it to our attention and it is something we will have to look into.

However, as I said, it is the same cheese we've alway imported.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Best Regards,

Margaret

igourmet.com





-----Original Message-----
From: blvddad@aol.com [mailto:blvddad@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:50 PM
To: cservice@igourmet.com
Subject: Wrong items were shipped to me

From: john trombley
Email: blvddad@aol.com
IP Address: 64.12.116.70
Comments: here is a picture of a cheese shipped to me a few days ago.



this cheese had no indication that it was a controlled appellation serra de
estrela. although it was very fine, i don''t believe that i had the correct
item. can you make this right for me?

order no. 73640115-1

sincerely,
john trombley

[Roy Hersh]

John,

BRAVO!!!!


Here is an email I got back from my friend in Portugal. Our sources are quite similar:

"I used to know a gentleman from Serra da Estrela banded CASA MATIAS, which is one of the best Serra da Estrela's Cheese available, but can not find his contact now. I recall we used to exchange emails when I was in New York. I'm going to look for his email and if I find it I will let you know.

For inquires about Serra da Estela you may want to try to contact this company:

* CHEESE WORKS > http://www.thecheeseworks.com
This company is the importer of Casa Matias' Serra da Estela, and do have an office in California.

[John Trombley]

John,

BRAVO!!!!


Here is an email I got back from my friend in Portugal. Our sources are quite similar:

"I used to know a gentleman from Serra da Estrela banded CASA MATIAS, which is one of the best Serra da Estrela's Cheese available, but can not find his contact now. I recall we used to exchange emails when I was in New York. I'm going to look for his email and if I find it I will let you know.

For inquires about Serra da Estela you may want to try to contact this company:

* CHEESE WORKS > http://www.thecheeseworks.com
This company is the importer of Casa Matias' Serra da Estela, and do have an office in California.

Dear Roy,

Casa Matias and The Cheese Works were principals in this problem. Apparently this is how this went down: Matias offered The Cheese Works an unbranded cheese that they claimed was identical to their DOC cheese (although as I point out in my letter there are other differences from the standard than simply the labeling--for instance the cheese sold was 1.2 pounds per wheel rather than 2 pounds, 40 percent lighter), only without the labeling. The unlabeled cheese (which of course could not legally be sold as Sierra de Estrela) is supposed to be a little cheaper to make, how, that is not specified, and in order to supposedly 'hold down costs' to the consumer, they decided to make the switch. Apparently IGourmet and The Cheese Works may not have been familiar with the fact that EU law has some legal force in the USA by treaty and perhaps by common law (but of course they should have been).

However that may be, I noticed that iGourmet has now changed the wording on their offer on their web-page to eliminate 'Serra de Estrela' in most places in their ads, contenting themselves with the statement that the cheese is 'made in the mountains of Serra de Estrela', which may or may not pass legal muster, just like saying that a zip-code wine might be 'made in Burgundy'.

Interestingly enough, there seems to be no lowering in the price of this cheese now that it's sold simply as 'Serra' tout court and may be 40 percent smaller.

Here is the offering on the The Cheese Works web-site, which I hope I'm invited to publish because it includes a 'send to a friend' button. You'll note that The Cheese Works is CURRENTLY selling this product as DOC, although to my knowlege 'SERRA' is NOT a DOC cheese. But I don't think I'll take on that problem.

PG200: SERRA - 100% SHEEPS MILK, CLOTH WRAPPED 4/2 lb


This 12th century D.O. cheese is famous throughout the world for its unique character and intense flavor. Made in the mountains of Serra da Estrela (also a national park), in the Beira region, this traditional washed rind farmhouse cheese is described as the "king of Portuguese cheeses". The Bordaleira ewes thrive on a diet of wild herbs, scrub, gorse blossoms and brambles, producing thick, luscious, aromatic milk. Serra da Estrella is handmade in small batches using wild thistle (Cynara cardunculus) to coagulate the milk. The curds are broken by hand instead of cut. It takes an average of three hours to make one cheese and only two or three are made per day. After the wheel is salted, it is then wrapped in cloth and aged in caves. When Queijo Serra da Estrela is younger, the rind is sticky and pungent and the interior is so creamy that it is almost spoonable. As it ages, the rind becomes harder and smoother with the interior becoming denser and sliceable. Either way, this is an incredible Portuguese treasure. It has a perfumed intensity and a sweet grassy taste that is fruity and mildly bitter. All that's needed is some fresh crusty bread and a bottle a wine. Perfect!

[Roy Hersh]

I have long been an "aquaintence" (as friends would be too strong of a word) with someone who used to ... and may still be involved with ... import the real Serra into the USA.

I may see if he is still involved in doing so and allow him to post an offering here on FTLOP, to get the real deal.

It sounds odd that a cheese importer (IGourmet) would not be aware of the legalities in labeling and know all of the nuances and certainly the weight of a product that they were planning to import into the country. In my former career, as a negotiator (purchasing director) for hotels and restaurants, mainly involved in food and beverage products ... I had to become extremely well versed in any product that I was going to contract. Even more so, when involved in a DI deal (direct importation) or transshipping from overseas. It makes me really wonder about the "rest of the story" when it comes to the issues raised in this thread.

[John Trombley]

I have long been an "aquaintence" (as friends would be too strong of a word) with someone who used to ... and may still be involved with ... import the real Serra into the USA.

I may see if he is still involved in doing so and allow him to post an offering here on FTLOP, to get the real deal.

It sounds odd that a cheese importer (IGourmet) would not be aware of the legalities in labeling and know all of the nuances and certainly the weight of a product that they were planning to import into the country. In my former career, as a negotiator (purchasing director) for hotels and restaurants, mainly involved in food and beverage products ... I had to become extremely well versed in any product that I was going to contract. Even more so, when involved in a DI deal (direct importation) or transshipping from overseas. It makes me really wonder about the "rest of the story" when it comes to the issues raised in this thread.

Yes, I know what you mean, Roy. Was iGourmet ignorant, or or simply feigning ignorance, concerning the issues here? Sometimes people don't look too closely into a change that makes them more money. This issue was the unwritten subtext to my last post.

As to your experience as a purchasing director, it may surprise you, a very conscientious businessman, that there are folks out ther whose standards are a little more umm, informal than yours. That's meant to be a compliment, Roy.

[Roy Hersh]

It is very easy to read too much into a situation. But without further facts, I am willing to look the other way and take them at face value that this was truly something innocent. I did like the fact that Paul did come back (seeminly later, after fact checking) to then offer remuneration for their error. That speaks volumes and is to be commended. He could have just apologized but went the extra mile to make this right (for everyone here) which should be applauded.

[John Trombley]

It is very easy to read too much into a situation. But without further facts, I am willing to look the other way and take them at face value that this was truly something innocent. I did like the fact that Paul did come back (seeminly later, after fact checking) to then offer remuneration for their error. That speaks volumes and is to be commended. He could have just apologized but went the extra mile to make this right (for everyone here) which should be applauded.

Agreed, Roy. Enough said.