For The Love Of Port

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:14 am**

Glenn E. wrote:A generic example of 20-up … a non-generic example of 18-up

18 on USL2: radius = 106.892pt ⇒ diameter ≈ 2.97″ ≈ 75.4mm

20 on USL2: radius = 104.202pt ⇒ diameter ≈ 2.89″ ≈ 73.5mm

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:33 pm**

My opinions:
1) In the US, using 17″×11″ (= /USL2) (a.k.a. tabloid) is a great option if you have it. That's pretty easy to find and support with a decent office printer, about the size of a dining placemat, and nicer than having to use multiple pieces of paper. I've made multiple different placemats this size using Julian's software and been very happy with the results.
2) 16 Port tasting glasses fit fine on a tabloid page. I've been at a lot of the tastings Glenn has been at and can confirm we had no real problem with this many, or a couple more. The critical thing here is the size of the glass. My work apparently thinks that the Marjorie Lumm site is evil, but checking Riedel, their Vinum Port glass has a maximum diameter of 2-7/8". They are narrower at the top. I think the Marjorie Lumm and the IVDP glasses are similar. The ones I typically rent are Libby Embassy 6½ oz (3766), and they are 2-5/8". If your glasses are 4", that's a very different situation.

(Yes, I rent glasses for tastings, $0.50 each. The break even point is about 6 tastings vs. buying. I have the hassle of pick-up and drop-off, but the place is less than 10 minutes from my home, and I trade that against the hassle of washing them all. The rentals just go back in the trays dirty.)

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:01 am**

Enough theory. Test.

At 100% size (not a default of 96%) print the 17"×11" pages of www.jdawiseman.com/2016/20160113_USL2_test.pdf. Take home. Set out the glasses you would use at your tasting. How many glasses are on the last page that is still comfortable to use? That is the answer.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:45 pm**

Julian D. A. Wiseman wrote:Enough theory. Test.
At 100% size (not a default of 96%) print the 17"×11" pages of www.jdawiseman.com/2016/20160113_USL2_test.pdf. Take home. Set out the glasses you would use at your tasting. How many glasses are on the last page that is still comfortable to use? That is the answer.

I printed them out and will test. And I'll start a new thread with the results and discussion.

I did have slightly difficulty in printing when I only wanted to print out the placemats and not the last two pages of the PDF. I think sometimes Adobe is too smart for their own good. You have the power to name pages, but then I couldn't specify just the pages I want, or at least I couldn't figure out the magic string. See this:

: printPages.jpg (40.69 KiB) Viewed 23574 times

I tried changing "Julian W.: Glasses: 0: 0 - 9" to "Julian W.: Glasses: 0: 0 - 7", but that just ending up giving me page 7. So then I just let it print all the pages, with the box checked to choose paper source by PDF page size. But then the printer complained to load A4 paper, since it had none. I have some A4 somewhere ...

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:47 am**

Just “1-7” would work. And I have re-generated the test PDF with the distillation log on /USL = 8½″×11″.

Eric Menchen wrote:I printed them out and will test. And I'll start a new thread with the results and discussion.

Please post in the software thread.

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:14 am**

Previous five posts moved here from 1985 30-year retrospective - February 26 - Chicago, IL.

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:48 am**

So I printed out Julian's test pages for U.S. tabloid size paper (11" x 17") and put a bunch of glasses on them for testing. For my testing I used a Schott Zwiesel SIZA Port Wine Glass. I think this the same as an IVDP glass. It has a squared stem with a notch in it. The base diamter is 2¾", whereas the bowl appears to have a maximum diameter of 2½".

: image001.jpg (110.62 KiB) Viewed 23522 times

Here's 13 glasses. No problem at all here. They are swimming with plenty of space.

: image002.jpg (91.19 KiB) Viewed 23522 times

And 14 is still easy with no issues.

: image003.jpg (94.43 KiB) Viewed 23522 times

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:54 am**

15 glass seems like an inefficient layout, but it really isn't an issue. Still no problems.

: image004.jpg (98.13 KiB) Viewed 23522 times

I thought the arrangement for 16 would work better than 15 because the glasses are round and a hex pattern gives more space between each, but really it didn't make a lot of difference. I think the additional glass vs. arrangement kind of cancelled out. I suppose I could measure the distances, or Julian could calculate them. As it is, the practical testing shows 16 is still very manageable without issue.

: image005.jpg (96.42 KiB) Viewed 23522 times

The next step is 18. When I reached for an interior glass, my fingers bumped at least one other glass. As I pulled up a different glass, there was a "ching" as the base bumped another glass. There weren't significant problems, but things are getting tight.

: image006.jpg (94.33 KiB) Viewed 23522 times

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:00 pm**

Here's a close-up of the bases for 18 glasses. You can see that they are getting pretty close to each other, thus the occasional bump.

: image007.jpg (80.88 KiB) Viewed 23521 times

And here are 20 glasses, with a close-up too. There is definitely going to be a lot of clinging and bumping here. I would not want this arrangement after drinking a bunch of Ports. The bases are just about touching.

: image008.jpg (100.29 KiB) Viewed 23521 times

: image009.jpg (84.92 KiB) Viewed 23521 times

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:02 pm**

And 21 is right out. They don't fit.

: image010.jpg (94.65 KiB) Viewed 23521 times

: image011.jpg (86.94 KiB) Viewed 23521 times

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:47 pm**

So 16 is probably the max one would want to go?

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:18 pm**

Andy Velebil wrote:So 16 is probably the max one would want to go?

Only with those SZ Port Wine glasses. We used 18-up and 20-up at the FTLOP 10th Anniversary tasting, which you attended, and they worked fine with the INAO tasting glasses from Marjorie Lumm. Both placemats are pretty densely packed, but no one broke any glasses or spilled any Port so it didn't seem to be a problem.

Posted: **Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:34 pm**

Eric: thank you for testing, and reporting so thoroughly.

Eric Menchen wrote:I suppose I could measure the distances, or Julian could calculate them.

Radii and diameters are on the log page, but, more conveniently:

Code: Select all

13 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 124.259pt  ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.45″ ≈ 87.7mm
14 glasses   ⇒   radius = 123pt      ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.42″ ≈ 86.8mm
15 glasses   ⇒   radius = 117.6pt    ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.27″ ≈ 83.0mm
16 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 110.055pt  ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.06″ ≈ 77.7mm
18 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 106.278pt  ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.95″ ≈ 75.0mm
20 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 103.565pt  ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.88″ ≈ 73.1mm
21 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈  98.013pt  ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.72″ ≈ 69.2mm

Eric Menchen wrote:And 21 is right out. They don't fit.

Eric Menchen wrote:The base diamter is 2¾", whereas the bowl appears to have a maximum diameter of 2½".

Agreed: 2¾″ > 2.72″.

Eric Menchen wrote:15 glass seems like an inefficient layout, but it really isn't an issue.

There are packings of 15 that are mathematically superior, but uglier.

Code: Select all

15 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 118.28pt   ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.29″ ≈ 83.5mm

If you prefer the extra 0.02″ of diameter to the ugliness, command same.

Eric Menchen wrote:I thought the arrangement for 16 would work better than 15 because the glasses are round and a hex pattern gives more space between each

Yes, well, it depends. The code tries all the patterns in PermittedPackingStyles, subject to its constraints and flags, and takes the one with the largest radius. On an infinite page hexagonal is indeed best, but, well, on an infinite page there would be an infinite amount of Port to drink, which would be ample for a weekend. One of the items in the default value of PermittedPackingStyles is [ /RectangularAlternateNudge /ImprovementPointsMin 2 ]. The “/ImprovementPointsMin 2” means that this is selected only if it improves the radius by at least 2pt ⇒ diameter improved by 0.055″ ≈ 1.4mm. The actual improvement for 15 on /USL2 is a mere 0.68pt of radius, so 0.02″ ≈ 0.48mm of diameter.

Posted: **Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:22 pm**

For the sake of completeness, there is now a /A3 test PDF, with circle sizes as follows.

Code: Select all

On /A3 = 420mm×297mm:
13 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 128.918 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.58″ ≈ 91.0mm 
14 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 122.466 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.40″ ≈ 86.4mm 
15 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 118.978 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.30″ ≈ 83.9mm 
16 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 113.932 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.16″ ≈ 80.4mm 
18 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 110.614 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.07″ ≈ 78.0mm 
19 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 107.034 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.97″ ≈ 75.5mm 
20 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 103.868 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.89″ ≈ 73.3mm 
21 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈  98.4921pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.74″ ≈ 69.5mm

Posted: **Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:26 pm**

Andy Velebil wrote:So 16 is probably the max one would want to go?

With the glasses I tested, 18 was o.k. I wouldn't want to do 20.

Glenn wrote:... but no one broke any glasses or spilled any Port so it didn't seem to be a problem.

Glenn, what are the base and max bowl diameters for the Marjorie Lumm glasses? As I recall, I spilled a little tawny

Posted: **Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:46 pm**

Eric Menchen wrote:Glenn, what are the base and max bowl diameters for the Marjorie Lumm glasses? As I recall, I spilled a little tawny

I keep forgetting to measure these... I'll try to do it tomorrow.

As you can see on page 110 of the newsletter (issue 87), the base fits easily into the circle on a 20-up 11 x 17 placemat. If you squint just right, you can see that the base is narrower than the widest part of the bowl as well.

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:18 pm**

Glenn E. wrote:As you can see on page 110 of the newsletter (issue 87), the base fits easily into the circle on a 20-up 11 x 17 placemat. If you squint just right, you can see that the base is narrower than the widest part of the bowl as well.

I looked at that picture, and I think there are only 18 circles on that placement. The second and fourth rows from the front only have four glasses. The first and third rows have four glasses, but five circles. Page 98 has a 20 glass layout.

Posted: **Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:18 am**

Eric Menchen wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:As you can see on page 110 of the newsletter (issue 87), the base fits easily into the circle on a 20-up 11 x 17 placemat. If you squint just right, you can see that the base is narrower than the widest part of the bowl as well.
I looked at that picture, and I think there are only 18 circles on that placement. The second and fourth rows from the front only have four glasses. The first and third rows have four glasses, but five circles. Page 98 has a 20 glass layout.

Yes, you're right. I think I saw the empty "FTLOP" circle and mentally added it to all 4 rows instead of just the 2 that it's actually on.

So yes, 18-up is on page 110 and 20-up is on page 98. Both are shown with INAO tasting glasses from Marjorie Lumm.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:11 pm**

Julian D. A. Wiseman wrote:
Eric Menchen wrote:at one point I got hit by the bug/feature that required a huge amount of processing and prevented me from using some of the online PDF converters. And when I was using ghostscript, it was taking a long time with that version.
That has been fixed. Sorry about that.

But I can see in your sweet-wine tasting that a more recent version would have had slightly more elegant output. Please update.

Provided late, but I have confirmed and verified that the current software has fixed the bug in GhostScript referenced by Eric. http://www.ps2pdf.com will once again convert with /inlinetitles true.

Posted: **Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:39 pm**

General rule: always download the latest version. New versions fix bugs; add features; improve default settings.

For The Love Of Port

Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: 1985 30-year retrospective - February 26 - Chicago, IL

Re: 1985 30-year retrospective - February 26 - Chicago, IL

Re: 1985 30-year retrospective - February 26 - Chicago, IL

Re: 1985 30-year retrospective - February 26 - Chicago, IL

Re: 1985 30-year retrospective - February 26 - Chicago, IL

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

So how many glasses on U.S. tabloid?

So how many glasses on U.S. tabloid?

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: So how many glasses on U.S. tabloid?

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting

Re: Free useful thing for those hosting a tasting