For The Love Of Port

Andrew E wrote:Considering the 350mL bottle of 2007 Graham's that was opened for me on July 4th weekend of this year is still sitting up on the wall from where I first ordered it, I think that might be a good answer for you there on how restaurants might handle things. I did go back a day later to order more of it, but then the price went up because apparently the first bartender rang it up wrong, so I didn't end up finishing it.

Since then a new bottle of VP from another maker showed up but it was already opened so I haven't ordered it.

What were they charging per glass for the Dow's? And how was it after being open for so long?

Andy brought up the price thing and WOW, some of the prices at some restaurant's is crazy. I was just in a well to do restaurant a few nights ago locally that is known for serving a lot of fine wines. I stopped in just to look at their desert wine list and saw a Graham's 20 year Tawny at $30 BONES a glass! Good news about this restaurant is they allow you to bring in your own wine (must be corked) for dinner.

I think the other poster is correct about hotel bars. Last month I was at the Renaissance Hotel in Sonoma California and the bar tender knew their 20 year Tawny had been out for awhile and DID open a new bottle for me. 16 bones a glass there. Then again this hotel is in the heart of wine country and they all are pretty rehearsed about most wines it appears.

Local wineries would not be too happy if they found out the local area establishments were giving their wines a bad name with long open times.

Victor D. wrote:Andy brought up the price thing and WOW, some of the prices at some restaurant's is crazy. I was just in a well to do restaurant a few nights ago locally that is known for serving a lot of fine wines. I stopped in just to look at their desert wine list and saw a Graham's 20 year Tawny at $30 BONES a glass! Good news about this restaurant is they allow you to bring in your own wine (must be corked) for dinner.

I think the other poster is correct about hotel bars. Last month I was at the Renaissance Hotel in Sonoma California and the bar tender knew their 20 year Tawny had been out for awhile and DID open a new bottle for me. 16 bones a glass there. Then again this hotel is in the heart of wine country and they all are pretty rehearsed about most wines it appears.

Local wineries would not be too happy if they found out the local area establishments were giving their wines a bad name with long open times.

OUCH! That's a lot of money for a glass of 20 year tawny, even for a restaurant. I'm sure others have far more experience in the restaurant pricing game, but if I owned a restaurant I'd rather keep wine prices down so I could move more "units" and make more money in the long run.

And yes, leaving any bottle of wine (except Madeira) open that long only does a disservice to the customers who will most likely end up with an off glass of wine and in the future ensure that said customer never does order another glass of wine off the list out of fear of getting another bad glass.

Andy Velebil wrote:

Andrew E wrote:Considering the 350mL bottle of 2007 Graham's that was opened for me on July 4th weekend of this year is still sitting up on the wall from where I first ordered it, I think that might be a good answer for you there on how restaurants might handle things. I did go back a day later to order more of it, but then the price went up because apparently the first bartender rang it up wrong, so I didn't end up finishing it.

Since then a new bottle of VP from another maker showed up but it was already opened so I haven't ordered it.

What were they charging per glass for the Dow's? And how was it after being open for so long?

Well it was Graham's, and they serve all port in aperitif size glasses. The first day when they initially opened it the glasses were $6 each (There was no price for the VP in their system, so the bartender chose the same price as the 10 year tawny). I had a couple of glasses hoping to come back when the bottle had more time to be open and did so 2 days later. It was drinking better but a different bartender was working that day and decided the price of the VP was $11 a pour (The 20 year Taylor price). Anyways, at $11 I kept it to a single glass and didn't end up going back for awhile, only to see the bottle still sitting there open more than a month later.

The owner does seem to be somewhat of a port drinker (wine drinker in general) though. There are empty magnum bottles of all sorts around the restaurant for decoration, some even VP's from the 70's. The bartenders who actually serve the stuff regularly, though, probably have no idea what the difference between the VP and tawny are. I think the good stuff in the restaurant is probably brought out for celebrations of some sort.

I did hand in a comment card saying keep up the good port selection and since then that full bottle of VP had shown up.

Andrew,
One thing I ask for when I know a restaurant uses those horrible small aperitif/cordial glasses is for them to put the Port into a small white wine glass. Sometimes I have to explain that Port isn't a cordial and needs to be in a glass where you can swirl and smell it just like wine because it is a type of wine. So far I've not had anyone refuse to put it into a bigger glass. And there's an added benefit to asking for them to use a larger glass, they usually end up giving you a larger pour!

Dow's >> Graham's opps

I had vintage port by the glass last month at two London restaurants. Both of them do not use Coravin and we were a bit surprised that not a lot of attention was paid to vintage port not lasting long after opening. Both team members responsible for our wine service at these restaurants seemed to be under the impression that port in general can be kept without much close attention so long as reasonable customer demand meant the bottle was finished reasonably quickly. And articulated such views to us when we asked out of curiosity (each glass poured was in good shape but we were curious about the level of port service knowledge for its own sake and not because of poor quality of the poured port):

What was surprising was that these restaurants were:

-- Phillip Howard co-owned restaurant "Kitchen W8" - one Michelin star (Glass Churchill's LBV 2000)
By the way, this was nice a la carte lunch featuring Ravioli of Orkney scallop and lobster, tomato, tomato, basil, smoked lobster cream, and Best End and Shoulder of Welsh lamb, English peas, nettle pesto and young garlic.

-- Gordon Ramsay Royal Hospital Road - three Michelin stars (Glass Fonseca Vintage1985)

Concededly, the GR RHR sommeliere did say that they may pull air out of the bottle on some occasions. However, it did not seem to be using Coravin or something like that but a more normal air removal method.

Generally the only port I would touch at a restaurant would be a tawny with a good fill level. Meaning it probably hasn't been open long.

I apply the same rule to whiskies as well.

Port is such a pain to order out...

1. How long has the bottle been open? (& will you get a truthy answer?)
2. Served in a cordial glass so you have to ask for a wine glass (Hint: ask before they pour the cordial glass, that's when you might score a more generous pour; otherwise they just dump the cordial amount into a larger glass).
3. While I expect a mark-up, many times one glass exceeds what I can buy an entire bottle for (i.e $20 for a Fonseca LBV or $18 for Noval Black).

Still, I have done it but usually with great care to all of the above....and am more likely too if bottle is to be opened (and like many stick to Tawnies). I have never ordered VP out.

Poyee K wrote:we were a bit surprised that not a lot of attention was paid to vintage port not lasting long after opening.

It really depends on the age and quality of the VP. A very old VP may not last more than a day or two once opened, but a young-ish VP will easily last a week to 10 days with few ill effects. Freshly bottled VP sometimes needs 3-4 days to show its best. The 1985 Fonseca that you had at GR RHR is a beast of a Port despite its age, so should be fine for a 5-7 days if properly cared for. (Kept refrigerated or chilled, for example.)

LBVs can last even longer. I've had them open for a month before without trouble.

Gary Richardson wrote:As a general rule, I don't order Port at restaurants unless (1) they have something that I have never tried or (2) they have something that I don't already have in my "cellar". This doesn't happen very often.

Oh ... and never Vintage Port for the same reasons already mentioned, here. I once (long ago) made the mistake of ordering a bottle of 1977 Graham's at a restaurant. They had no idea how to properly decant it, and it was at a time when that bottle was in a dumb phase.

So now, my Port consumption is almost exclusively at my home or my brother-in-laws.

-- Gary

Yeah, my stock of 77 Grahams was always seeming to slip into a new 'dumbness'. I think it was more a question of high bottle variation. Probably 35 percent of the case were writeoffs. But I paid $25 less discount per bottle for them.

John Trombley wrote: Yeah, my stock of 77 Grahams was always seeming to slip into a new 'dumbness'. I think it was more a question of high bottle variation. Probably 35 percent of the case were writeoffs. But I paid $25 less discount per bottle for them.

Yikes... My '77 Grahams totally rock and very consistent.

Moses Botbol wrote:

John Trombley wrote: Yeah, my stock of 77 Grahams was always seeming to slip into a new 'dumbness'. I think it was more a question of high bottle variation. Probably 35 percent of the case were writeoffs. But I paid $25 less discount per bottle for them.

Yikes... My '77 Grahams totally rock and very consistent.

We just had one last month and it was not as good as past bottles that I've opened. Others (including Roy) thought it showed much better than I did. (I gave it 92 points... others went as high as 94 or 94+.) I thought it was a bit hot and because of that guessed it was a Warre or Croft. Totally fooled by my own bottle! I did also note "very classic old Port profile" and some Christmas spices, but it just didn't seem like a Graham to me.

Still have a perfect "no VA" record on my bottles, though.

Glenn E. wrote:We just had one last month and it was not as good as past bottles that I've opened. Others (including Roy) thought it showed much better than I did. (I gave it 92 points... others went as high as 94 or 94+.) I thought it was a bit hot and because of that guessed it was a Warre or Croft. Totally fooled by my own bottle! I did also note "very classic old Port profile" and some Christmas spices, but it just didn't seem like a Graham to me.

My bottles of '77 are also on the hot side, but also smooth and elegant. Seem to be as sweet as expected in a Grahams port. I can see being fooled in not pegging it as a Grahams very easily.

Moses Botbol wrote:

John Trombley wrote: Yeah, my stock of 77 Grahams was always seeming to slip into a new 'dumbness'. I think it was more a question of high bottle variation. Probably 35 percent of the case were writeoffs. But I paid $25 less discount per bottle for them.

Yikes... My '77 Grahams totally rock and very consistent.

From what I hear from others, you may have been fortunate so far! May it continue!