Will ORGANIC Ports ever become popular?

[Roy Hersh]

Fonseca's Terra Prima was the first "certified" organic Port that I am aware of. I believe it came from Qta do Panascal fruit.

Beyond that particular bottling, do you believe that organics are becoming more prominent in the Douro and will we see more organic Ports in the future? Could "Organic Port" ever become a viable new category of Port like "Rose" or even "LBV" in their day?

I know that some viticulturists are currently producing non-certified organic wines, using organic methods. A good example is Quinta do Crasto, but there are several others.

So what do you think?

[Hannes Erven]

"Going organic" is quite a topic in many (richer) countries in Europe, but it is still much less common with wine than with other fruit products.

I have the impression that with wine, producers don't really have a choice: they mostly try to "leave the vinyard on its own" to reduce costs and labour, and if there's correctional action needed, you just have to do it.

During my recent stay at the Douro I asked every producer about this, and most of the time the answer was "it is not possible" in terms of a too high risk of loosing a whole year's production if you can't use some non-organic corrective measures.
At Quinta do Tedo I was told that they produce with organic methods for some years, but they need to complete four harvesting cycles before they will receive certification. So it's obviously something that needs time.

So would I buy organic port? Sure. Would I pay a higher price? Perhaps, but it would probably just add to the "sympathy factor" of the producer and make me tolerate a little higher prices in comparison to similar non-organic products.

For the mass market, I doubt that organic wine will reach a noteworthy market share.

[Frederick Blais]

Going organic is much easier in the Douro than lets say Bordeaux where there is more rain.

Having spoke with a few winemakers in the Douro, most of them would like to be 100% organic, it does make sense. Though there is that 1 year every 10 that makes you use the chemichals in such amount that you can't keep the certification. So it is much easier to do your best outside the certification than getting your hands cough within the certification. The Douro is still owned by many very small producers that can not afford to loose their crop or do not care about organic, as long as the beneficio protects their income, why do more?

One quote I'll remember "I put my money in my vineyard to grow vines, I want to see only vines!" It was his answer about use of chemicals or weed killers. This owner is not active anymore in the Douro as far as I know.

[Moses Botbol]

Many port houses are making nearly organic port as it is. If the industry could supply enough organic spirit at a reasonable price, we would see a lot more organic port. Why bother certifiying the Quinta if the the spirit isn't going to be organic?

I'd like to see a new certification for "nearly organic" or something like that.

[Rune EG]

I have only tasted the Fonseca organic port, and will not re-purchase.
However, if we have a look at the red and white wines, there are a lot of things happening here in Europe. First time I got red and white organic wines was in Spain abt 10 years ago, and with mix impressions (white was OK, red not really drinkable).
Now we get a much higher and more steady level of organic red wines from France (area Languedoc-Roussillon has many good organic red wines) and Germany (many nice organic white wines from Rheinhessen).
I think port wine will also be influenced by organic growing, may be not in short term, but 10-15 years from now they will have a significant share of the port production. At least this is my opinion.

[Marc J.]

I'd like to be able to have the option to purchase an organic Port, but given my experience with organic wines in gereral it might be awhile before they reach the same level as their non-organic counterparts. Nevertheless, I would be interested in purchasing organic Port as long as the quality/flavor profile was on a par with traditionally produced Ports.

[Eric Ifune]

I like the idea of organic, but I'm wary of certification. I mean, copper is an allowable fungicide?! I know many viticulturalists try to minimize it's use, but it's still adding a heavy metal to the enviornment. I wrote a paper as an undergraduate on heavy metal uptake by organisms in a controlled enviornment.

[Eric Menchen]

I too like the idea of organic and buy some organic products to avoid chemicals I don't like. But as Eric I. points out, there are things allowed in organic products that are plenty nasty. Organic mean just that. But guess what? Lots of organic things are really bad for you. Heard of hemlock? O.k., I don't know of farmers that are using hemlock, but they can use plenty of other natural organic products in their food production that might be bad for you. I don't think organic farmers are using rotenone any more, but look that one up. It is organic and was heavily used for a while.

Back to the topic at hand, I don't see organic Port being a big growth market, as organic wine isn't such a big market either compared to produce, meats, and other food products.

[Andy Velebil]

I like the idea of organic, but I'm wary of certification. I mean, copper is an allowable fungicide?! I know many viticulturalists try to minimize it's use, but it's still adding a heavy metal to the enviornment. I wrote a paper as an undergraduate on heavy metal uptake by organisms in a controlled enviornment.

IMO the whole "going Organic" thing is really more about publicity than anything else. Eric and others pointed out a serious flaw in the whole organic thing. I had a candid conversation about this topic two or three years ago with a viticulturist friend of mine and I was shocked by what I learned. There is a number of highly dangerous substances approved for use in an "organic vineyard." Stuff so dangerous the workers have to wear full suits and respirators to apply it. Yet in the non-organic vineyards the workers applying the substances used to treat the vines don't need any of those precautions. So if organic is supposed to be so great for everyone and everything, then why are the substances used so much more dangerous for the environment and people?

[Gustavo Devesas]

"Going organic" is quite a topic in many (richer) countries in Europe, but it is still much less common with wine than with other fruit products.

I have the impression that with wine, producers don't really have a choice: they mostly try to "leave the vinyard on its own" to reduce costs and labour, and if there's correctional action needed, you just have to do it.

During my recent stay at the Douro I asked every producer about this, and most of the time the answer was "it is not possible" in terms of a too high risk of loosing a whole year's production if you can't use some non-organic corrective measures.
At Quinta do Tedo I was told that they produce with organic methods for some years, but they need to complete four harvesting cycles before they will receive certification. So it's obviously something that needs time.

So would I buy organic port? Sure. Would I pay a higher price? Perhaps, but it would probably just add to the "sympathy factor" of the producer and make me tolerate a little higher prices in comparison to similar non-organic products.

For the mass market, I doubt that organic wine will reach a noteworthy market share.

Hannes! Great to finally see you here, it was about time that FTLOP has a Port lover from Austria!

Look forward to seeing you again,

Gustavo

[Graeme D]

Hopefully I'm not revealing any trade secrets but on a buyers trip with Taylor Fladgate last year Adrian Bridge revealed they were aging barrels of organic port to produce an Organic 10 Year Old Tawny which isn't in their current line up. Unfortunately I'm not sure when the 10 years will be up, but I would think this would be a better wine than Terra Prima to introduce organic port to a wider market.

[Tom Archer]

Fads come, fads go..

I sense we're on the cusp of a 'fad change' period at the moment..

The global warming BS has been exposed (try looking up the 'greenhouse' gas emissions from recent volcanic eruptions, and how they trivialise human activity..) - and the resurgence of the nuclear lobby has been kicked into touch by events in Japan..

'Organic' has always been a tad trendy, and there is good evidence that it does have advantages where meat and veg are concerned..

..but for wine??

Forget the label, forget the hype, I think there's a new cynical society brewing that will only believe it if it really does taste better..

..anyone who thinks the word 'organic' will enable them to sell cr*p wine for an inflated price; - should think again now..

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Fads come, fads go..

Tom

Tom and I may disagree from time to time, but we're in full agreement here.

Here is a link to a good short and to the point article about organic and non-organic pesticides I found through UC Berkley. http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

or how about this one http://www.headlice.org/news/2005/pesticidemyth.htm

All poisons used in pesticides are rated on a scale called EIQ, or Environmental Impact Quotient. They are tested for range of toxicity, or what it is they will harm or kill. Let's say the poison doesn't harm people in anything short of beer-chugging amounts; that might merit a 2. If an ounce of the stuff in a stretch of stream kills all the fish; give it a 10. The poisons are tested for how long they stay in the soil, in plants, if they kill bees, if they kill worms, etc.

Here are some interesting EIQs:
# Bt (organic)
13.5
# Acephate (synthetic)
17.9
# Soap (organic)
19.5
# Carbaryl (synthetic)
22.6
# Malathion (synthetic)
23.2
# Rotenone (organic)
33.0
# Sabadilla (organic)
35.6

But organic pesticides have very real drawbacks. Most of them are broad spectrum, meaning they kill beneficial insects (just like those dangerous synthetic chemicals). They are not as thoroughly tested as synthetics. Batch strength can vary. And, perhaps most dangerous of all, they are perceived by the gardening public as safe. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Pyrethrum is an organic poison used by organic vegetable growers and used by commercial industries as the toxin in sprays designed to kill everything from wasps to asparagus beetles. It's also a nerve toxin, and extremely dangerous to infants

So do you really think "Going Organic" is really better for you or the environment?

[oscarquevedo]

Moses points out the biggest challenge for Organic Port: finding organic spirit at a reasonable price to fortify the must. The question is the price of this spirit. The current spirit we use for Port is made from distilled wine which costs under 0.30 or 0.40 euros per litter. In some cases the price of the wine is much lower. But organic wine is much more expensive and there is no chance it will not influence and increase the final price on the shelve. So this may be the biggest obstacle for Organic Port to become popular. Because in terms of grape growing the Douro is not a difficult place to grow organic grapes and these people here are used to craft niche wines.

[Roy Hersh]

Lots of interesting and divergent opinions here.

A few quotes from Dirk Niepoort:

“I’ve always believed we should go organic. I’ve done some experiments with organics in the past, and I wanted my organic practices in the winery to be carried through to the vineyard. “I was working with someone who didn’t really take an interest in organics, but in the end I decided to impose my green agenda in the vineyard. “Since 2004, I’ve really been pushing organics. We’re not certified yet, but we will be.”

[Guimaraens]

Good afternoon,

I have read the discussion on Organic Port with great interest. There is a wealth of different views, all of which I respect, so I will add my experience in this field as a contribution to the discussion.

In 1992, inspired by my father, Bruce Guimaraens, we converted a vertical planting and a patamare (terraced) vineyard to organic at Quinta do Panascal. I believe this to have been one of the most important decisions we made in the last 20 years for our viticulture in the Douro.

A number of lessons were quickly learn't:
1. the Douro with it's low spring and summer rainfall and low humidity has much better growing conditions than the northern regions of Europe. The use of natural sulpher and copper sulphate are very suitable to our growing conditions. The use and abuse of the sythetic products, widely promoted by the multinational chemical companies during the 70's and 80's, resulted in the region not using these natural products, and using excessive quantities of their synthesised products.
2. It is perfectly possible to run our vineyards using only sulphur and copper sulphate, however as we cannot resort to the currative effect of syhthesized products, more applications are necessary, and the timimg of them is crucial. In our organic vineyards at Panascal and Stº Antonio, we have never had a year that we have lost our fruit to disease, even 1993 and 2002. It is possible, however many more applications and tractor runs are necessary.
3. The number one problem in running a vineyard organically in the Douro is the management of weeds, where the earth patamares built in the 1970's and 1980's oblige the dependence on the use of herbicides.

With our experience gained over the years with our organic viticulture, we have developed the construction of 1 row terraces, built with lazer guided buldozers, in order to control water run-off and to enable us to mechanically cut the grass that we allow to grow freely during the winter months. We also introduced the practice of planting cover crops during the winter months. With this vineyard model we have eliminated the use of any residual herbicide, and in our conventionally run vineyards, we only apply a contact herbicide under the vine.
Regarding the spraying of vines, the lessons learn't from our organic vineyards has taught us to use more of the natural products (sulphur and copper sulphate) and drastically reduce the use of sythesized products. I agree the use of copper must be kept to a minimum, and there are strict guidelines for this, however it is better to use copper than many of the pesticides available on the market.

In summary, all farmers should have a small parcel of their vineyards run organically in order to promote better vineyard practices. I am essentially a believer in Sustainable Viticulture, where the objective is to eliminate up to 80-90% of synthesized products, however the 10-20% that is used makes the running of these vineyards possible on an overall scale, with much greater effects to any viticultural region.

Regarding the Terra Prima, which is a Premium Ruby and very much in the style of the Fonseca Bin 27, we only set out to produce this Port when I was able to source a spirit produced from organically grown grapes. This spirit costs me 60% more than a normal spirit, and I have no difficulties in sourcing it. The extra price we charge for our Terra Prima covers this cost, as well as the 20-30% higher costs that we have with running a vineyard organically. Terra Prima simbolises the work we have done with our organic viticulture over the last 20 years, and we believe there are consumers who look for it, and appreciate it.

The lessons we have learn't from working on this organic project has been crucial both to the way we think about our viticulture and winemaking, and has shapped the direction we have taken, which is one to strive for a sustainable viticulture across every grape we grow.

Organic viticulture does not produce better Ports than a sustainable viticulture, and one must remeber that anyone who runs a vineyard organically is normally someone who pays much more atention to their vineyard. It is this attention, and manageing the right environmental balance in a vineyard that produces the quality benefits.

There is so much more to this topic, however it is not possible to do this here. Critics should try to understand the motives behind the producers of any organic Port or Wine. If it is marketing led: shoot it down, if it is the filosofy of the producer, this can only be positive. There is so much still to be learn't and understood, and the balance of nature is something that all wine producers must strive to achieve. In viticulture today we are paying a high price for the mistakes made in the 70's and 80's, however the positive aspect is that most of the mistakes have been reversed, and we now have a much greater understanding than ever before.

best regards,
David Fonseca Guimaraens

[Eric Menchen]

... so I will add my experience in this field as a contribution to the discussion ...

[Jeff G.]

Moses points out the biggest challenge for Organic Port: finding organic spirit at a reasonable price to fortify the must. The question is the price of this spirit. The current spirit we use for Port is made from distilled wine which costs under 0.30 or 0.40 euros per litter. In some cases the price of the wine is much lower. But organic wine is much more expensive and there is no chance it will not influence and increase the final price on the shelve. So this may be the biggest obstacle for Organic Port to become popular. Because in terms of grape growing the Douro is not a difficult place to grow organic grapes and these people here are used to craft niche wines.

correct me if i'm wrong,

but the spirits used, doesn't it go through a distillation process that basically involes boiling off the alcohol, and condensing it somewhere else, adding water to get teh ABV required and perhaps aging it somewhere in bottle?

The process of distillation basically ensures that the ethanol you will ingest will be pretty much the same organic or not once the process is complete, making Organic in my mind, a marketing gimick.

[Eric Menchen]

Distillation is not a perfect process, and even if it were so, what if the boiling point of some inorganic pesticide was the same as alcohol?

[Jeff G.]

Distillation is not a perfect process, and even if it were so, what if the boiling point of some inorganic pesticide was the same as alcohol?

ethanol is a fairly simple chemical compound with a fairly low boiling point of 78C.

It'd be very unlikely as these pesticides are simple molecules thereby having a lower boiling point. Also as synthetically engineered products, you'd want these chemicals to be quite hardy. It'd be pointless to have a pesticide that evaporates when the temperature on a very hot day gets above say 40C.

Even water has a boiling point of 100C.

i'd also like to point out that Ethanol in enough quantity is a fairly toxic "pesticide" =)