Vintage Port Soil Aging Question

[Victor D.]

Since I am new here and to drinking Vintage ports and have been reading huge amounts of great articles from Roy and several others who have visited QdN and other historic wineries, I have a perplexing question.

Since some of these vineyards have been around for decades upon decades, how does the soil keep going as long as it has especially the Nacional vineyards that have been very special it appears for a LONG time. Do these wineries add to the soil to keep the nutrients going all these years? Obviously the environment has much to do with great years, but how about the aged soil?

Is there no end in sight for aged soil for the Portugal wines? Thanks all.

Vic

[Roy Hersh]

Victor,

When you visit Quinta do Noval later this year and other places in the Douro, you will see that what you are calling soil, is really anything but. It is rocky granite and schistous soil that is more rock than what you will ever expect. It is amazing that vines can grow in it at all.

[Tom Archer]

Agree - the vines live in little more than powdered rock, although there are one or two outcrops of sand, notably at the Nacional vineyard.

Over the years, a little identifiable topsoil forms in places where it doesn't get washed away, but when the vineyards are re-modelled, there is no apparent effort made to keep the top and sub soils separate.

Tom

[Derek T.]

One of the factors to take into account here is the depth that the vine roots reach over years/decades of growth. I recall seeing the root of an old vine at Crasto a couple of years ago what was about an inch thick and was exposed on the side wall of a terrace that was four or five metres above. Given the thickness at that depth it obviously went on down for many metres below. These roots can be tens of metres long and reach places where normal plant life would not be able to reach. From what I saw, these old vines are like icebergs with 90% of their mass below the surface. There is certainly nothing resembling "soil" at these depths, or even close to the surface, so the vines must take their nutrients from the rocky schist, or the nutrient enriched water that runs through it.

[Victor D.]

This is very interesting, I cannot wait to see this vineyard.

It seems this growth area seems very similar a rare tree in Huntsville Alabama where the ultra rare Chitum Burl from its Smoke Tree grows in limestone sections.

[Derek T.]

there are one or two outcrops of sand, notably at the Nacional vineyard.

Sand! I can't say I've ever seen sand in the Douro apart from on the shores of the river.

[Tom Archer]

Sand! I can't say I've ever seen sand in the Douro apart from on the shores of the river.

Yes, really, have a look at the soil in the Nacional vineyard next time you're at Noval.

Phylloxera doesn't thrive in sandy soils, which is why they can get away with ungrafted vines.

Tom

[Glenn E.]

Sand! I can't say I've ever seen sand in the Douro apart from on the shores of the river.

Yes, really, have a look at the soil in the Nacional vineyard next time you're at Noval.

Yep, I've seen it. A beach it is not, however.

[Moses Botbol]

The roots can go down 20' into the "soil".

[Victor D.]

Sand! I can't say I've ever seen sand in the Douro apart from on the shores of the river.

Yes, really, have a look at the soil in the Nacional vineyard next time you're at Noval.

Phylloxera doesn't thrive in sandy soils, which is why they can get away with ungrafted vines.

Tom

I hope to be there in December to see for myself. I will have many questions for sure while I'm there.

[Andy Velebil]

There is a small layer of topsoil where some producers grow cover crops that help retain moister, prevent erosion, and which also helps transmit nutrients to the roots down below. However the bulk of what is below is schist and why Port, and Douro wines, also tend to have lots of minerality to them. However, that top soil is a very important part of the equation and without it you won't have a very successful vine. Great efforts are made to retain that top soil. When the levels (terraces) of a vineyard are cut into the hillside they are slopped back into the hill so when it rains the water doesn't carry away the topsoil and nutrients they contain. I've seen some thermal aerial photos of what the runoff does and it's amazing how much nutrients are washed down hill and the great efforts producers make to prevent it. So don't think the Douro is strictly this massive rock where vines are drilled into bare rock without any other soil. Sure underneath it's a big rock, but there is also soil as well.

As for the Nacional Vineyard, keep in mind the Nacional vineyard is constantly being replanted as the old vines die from various reasons or just aren't producing at the level wanted. It seems to have this mythical aura that it is never replanted and they are all the same vines as were planted back in the late 1920's and early 30's and that is just not the case. The choice of root stock used is more susceptible to disease and tends to require more on-going maintenance than other vineyards. But that also is something, which in certain years, lends itself to making an amazing Port.

[Victor D.]

There is a small layer of topsoil where some producers grow cover crops that help retain moister, prevent erosion, and which also helps transmit nutrients to the roots down below. However the bulk of what is below is schist and why Port, and Douro wines, also tend to have lots of minerality to them. However, that top soil is a very important part of the equation and without it you won't have a very successful vine. Great efforts are made to retain that top soil. When the levels (terraces) of a vineyard are cut into the hillside they are slopped back into the hill so when it rains the water doesn't carry away the topsoil and nutrients they contain. I've seen some thermal aerial photos of what the runoff does and it's amazing how much nutrients are washed down hill and the great efforts producers make to prevent it. So don't think the Douro is strictly this massive rock where vines are drilled into bare rock without any other soil. Sure underneath it's a big rock, but there is also soil as well.

As for the Nacional Vineyard, keep in mind the Nacional vineyard is constantly being replanted as the old vines die from various reasons or just aren't producing at the level wanted. It seems to have this mythical aura that it is never replanted and they are all the same vines as were planted back in the late 1920's and early 30's and that is just not the case. The choice of root stock used is more susceptible to disease and tends to require more on-going maintenance than other vineyards. But that also is something, which in certain years, lends itself to making an amazing Port.

Thank you for the reply on the geometry of the vineyard, VERY interesting to say the least.

I am confused though on your 2nd paragraph. If the vines are indeed re-planted, what makes this Nacional so special vs. the other planted vines in the other parts of the vineyard? Sorry for the newb question, but just not following what makes this "certain" area so special if the area is replanted with other vines or is the replant vines taken from the same Nacional area and these are replanted?

[Andy Velebil]

I am confused though on your 2nd paragraph. If the vines are indeed re-planted, what makes this Nacional so special vs. the other planted vines in the other parts of the vineyard? Sorry for the newb question, but just not following what makes this "certain" area so special if the area is replanted with other vines or is the replant vines taken from the same Nacional area and these are replanted?

A very good question so don't apologize. The Nacional vineyard uses native rootstock that was generally abandoned back in the late 1800's when Phyloxera devastated the Douro. They discovered that American rootstock was resistant to the disease and thus the Douro was basically replanted on American rootstock. As I mentioned the native rootstock is more susceptible to disease and requires more care. Also, as with any vine they eventually die off or become so low yielding it's not worth keeping it anymore and you have to replace it.

As to what makes the vineyard so special that it can make amazing wines? Well, as with any small parcel that is very highly maintained you can really control the quality, but at a high cost. It takes a lot of time and effort, and money, for people to spend so much time on such a small low yielding section of vineyard. Obviously not a profitable thing to do on a large scale. And just to point out, Nacional hasn't always produced great Ports. It has had periods, mostly in the 1970's and 1980's, where they were far from living up to their overall reputation.

One interesting thing is the make up of Nacional Ports. There is a higher than normal amount of one particular grape in it....anyone know what it is? I'll give you a hint, one other big producer recently launched a high end Port that also has a large portion of this grape in it.

[Tom Archer]

what makes this Nacional so special vs. the other planted vines in the other parts of the vineyard?

It's a cocktail of factors - much greater attention during cultivation, much more rigorous sorting prior to vinification and more intensive treading than most foot trodden wines are part of the equation; but I have also been told (from a very eminent source) that the ungrafted vines in the Nacional vineyard produce grapes with a smaller than average berry size, that in turn yield better juice.

Whether is this due to the vines being ungrafted, the depredations of the small amount of phylloxera present in the vineyard, the sandy soil, or a combination of all three; is unclear.

Tom

[Marco D.]

One interesting thing is the make up of Nacional Ports. There is a higher than normal amount of one particular grape in it....anyone know what it is? I'll give you a hint, one other big producer recently launched a high end Port that also has a large portion of this grape in it.

Sousão?

[Glenn E.]

One interesting thing is the make up of Nacional Ports. There is a higher than normal amount of one particular grape in it....anyone know what it is? I'll give you a hint, one other big producer recently launched a high end Port that also has a large portion of this grape in it.

I'm going to guess that the other high-end Port is Vesuvio's Capela, and that the grape in question is Touriga Nacional.

Even though it is arguably the most famous grape in the Douro valley, Touriga Nacional usually makes up a relatively small percentage of Port. It doesn't take much of it in a blend to provide the backbone and structure that it is famous for. Noval Nacional and Vesuvio Capela both contain a higher percentage of Touriga Nacional than normal.

Marco's guess is a good one, too - Nacional and Capela also both contain Sousão which is relatively rare in Vintage Port blends.

I can't find specifics for Noval Nacional, but Vesuvio Capela's blend is 40% Touriga Nacional, 30% Touriga Franca and 30% Sousão.

[Tom Archer]

One interesting thing is the make up of Nacional Ports. There is a higher than normal amount of one particular grape in it....anyone know what it is? I'll give you a hint, one other big producer recently launched a high end Port that also has a large portion of this grape in it.

And there's another in the wings that I know of.. - I can't say who or where at this point though (and I doubt we'll see it's debut this year..)

Tom

[Eric Menchen]

One interesting thing is the make up of Nacional Ports. There is a higher than normal amount of one particular grape in it....anyone know what it is? I'll give you a hint, one other big producer recently launched a high end Port that also has a large portion of this grape in it.

While Touriga Nacional would seem the choice on Jeopardy for the "Stupid Answers" category, I think I read that this isn't disproportionally represented in that vineyard, but I could be wrong. Overall Quinta do Noval doesn't have much Sousão planted, and Christian says that not much goes into their VP, if any. But the Nacional vinyard is another story, and David Guimaraens does think that it has Sousão which features into the Nacional mix. Hmmm ... Well, I found this listing of what is planted there: Touriga Nacional, Francesa (or Franca), Tinto Cão, Tinta Roriz, Barroca, Amarela and Sousão

[Andy Velebil]

Marco is the winner. A grape that was talked about a lot in old books I've read from the 1800's. But after phyloxera not much attention has been given this grape.

[Marco D.]

I remember reading that Sousao has a dark pulp and adds a deep, dark color to the wine, although it tends to lose the color fairly rapidly... Although some are not convinced about this rapid loss.