For The Love Of Port

Beyond the UK, what is the next best country in Europe to find the widest selection of Ports?

Roy Hersh wrote:Beyond the UK, what is the next best country in Europe to find the widest selection of Ports?

Portugal

Based on the number of hits I see on Wine Searcher, eBay, etc. Denmark and the Netherlands appear to be quite large markets for Port followed by Germany.

Derek T. wrote:

Roy Hersh wrote:Beyond the UK, what is the next best country in Europe to find the widest selection of Ports?

Portugal

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Portugal might win for selection, but I doubt they win on price.

Nor should they, necessarily.

I can buy fine WA wine that is bottled 15 miles away from my home and pay considerably less at times, by purchasing it from a retailer in CA and paying for it to be shipped back here. Now if that isn't one of the things that makes you go, "huh"?

Regardless of Porto and the Douro being the source, the shippers have to ensure their export markets are not undersold.

It would be very nice if there were a lot more bargains at the source, (at the Lodges and Quintas) but that model would fail rather quickly. So we have to be happy that rarities which are not sold in our home markets are available for sale, instead. It would certainly be nice to be able to get better pricing at the source though, but I get why that's not done.

Roy Hersh wrote:It would be very nice if there were a lot more bargains at the source, (at the Lodges and Quintas) but that model would fail rather quickly.

Why would it fail quickly?

How much of the market would be bought directly at source for cheaper if possible? I don't think it would hurt the export market at all. It would be an easy experiment to have attractive pricing in Douro & could help tourism. If I knew I could save 50% at the quinta, I may take the trip where I may not and just stay in Porto if there was little incentive. It's easy enough for them to mark down prices and raise them at will.

Heck, I may not even buy the wine or port at all if I couldn't get certain pricing at the quinta, so I am not hurting the export market at all. Actually, I would be helping it by drinking the wine at home and promoting the product in my own market.

Moses,
As with most businesses, as a producer you don't want to sell your product direct to consumers for less than what retail outlets are selling them for. It creates a lot of tension and upsets a whole lot of importers/distributors/retailers. Hence why, at least in the wine trade as a whole, you'll almost never see wine cheaper at the source than out in retail. Keeps everyone happy, well except for the consumer

Andy Velebil wrote:Moses,
As with most businesses, as a producer you don't want to sell your product direct to consumers for less than what retail outlets are selling them for. It creates a lot of tension and upsets a whole lot of importers/distributors/retailers. Hence why, at least in the wine trade as a whole, you'll almost never see wine cheaper at the source than out in retail. Keeps everyone happy, well except for the consumer

Yes, I understand that model thank you, but considering where the Douro is, the little amount any consumer is going to carry back; what's the downside? The more you get a consumer to be loyal to a brand (buying and drinking experience in the Douro), the better it is for the brand in the long run. Once the consumer runs out of what they bought in the Douro, they'll look locally for it.

I think it is BS that any of tiers will be negatively effected if consumers got a deal in the Douro. 25% discounting won't put anyone out of business.

Moses Botbol wrote:I think it is BS that any of tiers will be negatively effected if consumers got a deal in the Douro. 25% discounting won't put anyone out of business.

That might be true in the USA, but not here. If the shippers started punting out cheap port from their lodges or as direct purchases from their websites it would have a significant effect on the network of merchants and retailers in the UK. We are much closer than you and shipping costs from Oporto to the UK are not much of an issue. If it was cheap enough you would probably find that people would be driving from the south of England through France and Spain to pick up cases by the van load.

Regardless of what would actually happen, the real barrier is the need for the shippers to maintain the goodwill of their distributors and retailers. There simply isn't enough of an incentive for them to risk upsetting the people they rely on to get their product on the shelves.

Eric Menchen wrote:Portugal might win for selection, but I doubt they win on price.

Let's see where we are in a couple of years!!

I've had some luck on a couple of occasions at Dutch auctions - particularly for old Niepoort which seems to come round a lot more frequetly than the UK and go for reasonable prices.

Derek T. wrote:

Moses Botbol wrote:I think it is BS that any of tiers will be negatively effected if consumers got a deal in the Douro. 25% discounting won't put anyone out of business.

That might be true in the USA, but not here. If the shippers started punting out cheap port from their lodges or as direct purchases from their websites it would have a significant effect on the network of merchants and retailers in the UK. We are much closer than you and shipping costs from Oporto to the UK are not much of an issue.

I would only do hand carry one case per person limit from the Quinta and no web sales. That way the impact is minimal yet there's enough incentive to actually buy some wine. I hardly bought anything when I visited Douro and may've if prices were better. That was money they let fly out the door. Nor did I buy it when I got back.

Derek T. wrote:

Roy Hersh wrote:Beyond the UK, what is the next best country in Europe to find the widest selection of Ports?

Portugal

Based on the number of hits I see on Wine Searcher, eBay, etc. Denmark and the Netherlands appear to be quite large markets for Port followed by Germany.

There is an okay selection here in Denmark but prices are
generally much too high. Due to one retailer's massive purchase
of Burmester (http://www.philipsonwine.com) you can find some fair deals there.

Andreas

Andreas Nielsen wrote:

Derek T. wrote:

Roy Hersh wrote:Beyond the UK, what is the next best country in Europe to find the widest selection of Ports?

Portugal

Based on the number of hits I see on Wine Searcher, eBay, etc. Denmark and the Netherlands appear to be quite large markets for Port followed by Germany.

There is an okay selection here in Denmark but prices are
generally much too high. Due to one retailer's massive purchase
of Burmester (http://www.philipsonwine.com) you can find some fair deals there.

Andreas

Andreas - some of these prices look rather good - i am in Copenhagen 1-2x per month at the moment (mainly day trips), but if i ever do an over-night trip i was wondering about a wine shop that would either deliver to the hotel in advance or decant in-shop for pick-up on the day so that i could share a few glasses with my work team - are there any other good retailers you would recommend?

Niepoort seems to have a strong presence in the Netherlands. Lekker

Moses Botbol wrote:

Derek T. wrote:

Moses Botbol wrote:I think it is BS that any of tiers will be negatively effected if consumers got a deal in the Douro. 25% discounting won't put anyone out of business.

That might be true in the USA, but not here. If the shippers started punting out cheap port from their lodges or as direct purchases from their websites it would have a significant effect on the network of merchants and retailers in the UK. We are much closer than you and shipping costs from Oporto to the UK are not much of an issue.

I would only do hand carry one case per person limit from the Quinta and no web sales. That way the impact is minimal yet there's enough incentive to actually buy some wine. I hardly bought anything when I visited Douro and may've if prices were better. That was money they let fly out the door. Nor did I buy it when I got back.

It doesn't matter if someone bought one bottle or one hundred bottles. It is bad business for a producer to sell directly to a consumer for less than what other retailers do.

As Derek mentioned, it is far more about protecting their agent/importer network as well as distributors and making sure not to undersell them. It is not about pricing at retail per se, although they are ultimately affected by the margins compounded by the two other aforementioned tiers.

Rob C. wrote:
Andreas - some of these prices look rather good - i am in Copenhagen 1-2x per month at the moment (mainly day trips), but if i ever do an over-night trip i was wondering about a wine shop that would either deliver to the hotel in advance or decant in-shop for pick-up on the day so that i could share a few glasses with my work team - are there any other good retailers you would recommend?

Rob,

Have you looked at other retailers than the one I mentioned? His prices are based on 12 bottles purchase. I know some people in the wine business here in CPH and could try to make a Call. What kind of port and at around what price would you be looking for?

Andreas

Roy Hersh wrote:As Derek mentioned, it is far more about protecting their agent/importer network as well as distributors and making sure not to undersell them. It is not about pricing at retail per se, although they are ultimately affected by the margins compounded by the two other aforementioned tiers.

Hence my earlier post....

It creates a lot of tension and upsets a whole lot of importers/distributors/retailers.

And keep in mind not every country has a 3-teir system. Some importers are also retailers all wrapped up into one. But in the end, the retailer complains a lot and just as much as the others. EVERY wine buyer I've ever gotten to know has, at some point, complained or refused to carry a wine because a winery sells direct for the same price or less than they're buying it at wholesale. As I mentioned earlier, everyone complains.

On the flip side, importers/distributors like to dump their excess stock for cheap with stores that don't have on-line inventories and prices. If the prices aren't easily found online then other retailers don't complain to them about store-'X' selling it for less at retail than what they paid for it wholesale. So if you're looking for good deals stick with your local brick and mortar shop that doesn't list their inventory online. Get to know the wine buyer and have them keep an eye out for good deals on wines you like.

Andy Velebil wrote:

Roy Hersh wrote: On the flip side, importers/distributors like to dump their excess stock for cheap with stores that don't have on-line inventories and prices. If the prices aren't easily found online then other retailers don't complain to them about store-'X' selling it for less at retail than what they paid for it wholesale. So if you're looking for good deals stick with your local brick and mortar shop that doesn't list their inventory online. Get to know the wine buyer and have them keep an eye out for good deals on wines you like.

Distributors don't mind dumping their port at 19 cents on the dollar (wholesale) but hem and haw if a producer sells something 25% below retail to a consumer visiting the Quinta... Wonder why port sales aren't on the rise

Andy Velebil wrote:On the flip side, importers/distributors like to dump their excess stock for cheap with stores that don't have on-line inventories and prices. If the prices aren't easily found online then other retailers don't complain to them about store-'X' selling it for less at retail than what they paid for it wholesale.

This is precisely the loophole that Wines 'Til Sold Out (wtso.com, or winestilsoldout.com) uses. Since their prices are only online for as long as the wine is actually available, which is usually mere hours, they don't affect the producer/retailer relationship. (WTSO prices are so fleeting that even WineSearcher.com doesn't include them.) That allows WTSO to purchase all kinds of really great wine at drastically reduced prices and then pass those savings along to us.