For The Love Of Port

I am lucky enough to have been given a case of Fonseca Finest 19070 Vintage Port about 33 years ago. I have opened and enjoyed 4 bottles very much - unfortunately bottle 5 & 6 were very disappointing - tainted in taste and colour (going very much more orange). There was some transportation during this period (1 day car journey). Can two bottles from one case of such a celebrated vintage really have gone 'wrong'? The remaining 6 bottles have now been lying still again for the last 4 years. Is it worth opening another bottle to see if I have just had two unlucky bottles?...They are apparently worth £100-140/bottle today. Tempted to see if a collector wants them if I am not going to be able to enjoy drinking them! Any thoughts much appreciated.

Hi Rory,

Welcome to the Forum. I've renamed your thread from "test" so people are more apt to read it. I'll allow others to chime in first before I do.

Andy/Roy, in the absence of any other commentary I would much appreaciate your views - thanks a lot, Rory

Rory,

I see you live in London, which suggests to me that the transportation of the bottles by car at some point between you tasting the good and the bad bottles is unlikely to be the issue. We simply do not have the sort of temperatures here that would cause that problem unless you left the bottles in the car for an extended period on a boiling hot summer's day? If that was the case I would suspect that all of the remaining bottles would be affected in the same way.

But if we rule that out for now, what you appear to have is some bottle variation within the case. Do you happen to know who bottled the wine? If it was a UK bottling there are some merchants who were more reliable than others, which is a more likely explanation for what you have encountered.

As regards selling them, I think you are unlikely to get the going rate for what remains of this case now that you have been honest enough to describe the problem. The less scrupulous tend to punt these things into auction and say nothing, leaving the unsuspecting buyer taking a risk that they shouldn't have to. I applaud your honesty!

Derek

it could just be as simple as bottle variation, which isn't unheard of with older wines and Port. For instance, a bottle on the outside edge of the case may have gotten slightly warmer than inside bottles and that caused an issue. Or a poor cork that caused issues, or even peoples palates having an off day. But any wine is really a living thing and sometimes they behave in strange ways. I don't know your wine drinking experience, but was it possible the Ports were corked? Even if they didn't appear to be corked based on the obvious wet cardboard smell, low level TCA can still rob a wine of it's true potential and lead to a wine not showing as it should.

The other issues would be decanting times. If the first few bottles were decanted say 10 hours and the last two were decanted 30 minutes, that could lead to a noticeable difference in how it shows and performs.

As for transport, a full day of transport in a car could also cause some issues. While there is no scientific data behind this, my brother used to work at a winery and when they would drive all day, then pop wines to taste right after arriving at a venue, they usually didn't show as well and generally showed better the next day after sitting overnight. Again, that's totally empirical evidence, but could also have contributed to it not showing well.

I know those are a lot of different scenarios so I'd suggest tasting another one in a more controlled setting. That is, where none or very limited transport has occurred before hand and where there is a good decanting regime used. If all is well, then you know it was probably just an anomaly...and you get to enjoy a great bottle of Port

Rory James-Duff wrote:unfortunately bottle 5 & 6 were very disappointing - tainted in taste and colour (going very much more orange).

Andy, there are no reasons why a one day car journey could cause a wine to instantly lose colour and turn orange. That is a long term process, which is why I think the transport issue is a bit of a red herring here. I agree that being shaken up for 24 hours isn't going to help a bottle show well if opened immediately, but it will fully recover if left for a few days. I think this colour variation also rules out TCA as being the problem. As far as I know TCA does not cause a loss of colour, if fact I am sure I have heard a suggestion that it causes the reverse.

This definitely sounds like bottle variation to me, and the variation sounds so stark that I suspect some of the bottles might have been contaminated at the time of bottling, causing those bottles to evolve much more quickly than the others.

Rory James-Duff wrote:I am lucky enough to have been given a case of Fonseca Finest 19070 Vintage Port about 33 years ago. I have opened and enjoyed 4 bottles very much - unfortunately bottle 5 & 6 were very disappointing - tainted in taste and colour (going very much more orange). There was some transportation during this period (1 day car journey). Can two bottles from one case of such a celebrated vintage really have gone 'wrong'? The remaining 6 bottles have now been lying still again for the last 4 years. Is it worth opening another bottle to see if I have just had two unlucky bottles?...They are apparently worth £100-140/bottle today. Tempted to see if a collector wants them if I am not going to be able to enjoy drinking them! Any thoughts much appreciated.

Hi Rory,

Any case can be unlucky and have a bad bottle or two as has been mentioned; the transportation mid-storage is unlikely to be a significant factor; however factors regarding storage conditions and when you drank the bottles would be very relevant. Can you comment on how the bottles have been stored both before and after your move, and over what rough timescale the bottles 1-6 were drunk?

For example, if you had the bottles stored in a cool, humid constant temperature cellar both before and after the move, drank all six bottles within 2yrs and only drank the last two at least 6 months after the move, then almost certainly these would just be 'unlucky' bottles and your others should hopefully be fine. On the other hand, if the bottles were in ideal storage prior to the move, and afterwards were just in a cupboard inside central heated house, and had been there for a couple of years before you drank bottles 5 and 6, then this could imply that the likely cause was oxidisation or cooking due to storage conditions, and the other bottles could easily be similarly affected.

The other issues would be decanting times. If the first few bottles were decanted say 10 hours and the last two were decanted 30 minutes, that could lead to a noticeable difference in how it shows and performs.

Andy is of course spot on that unless you allow sufficient decanting time (at least 3-4hr) then you will also typically get much more variable results, also. Additionally, ensuring cleanliness (no soap, mould etc) of the vessel into which you decant is also important. That said, if[/u] the problem is oxidisation then these will be irrelevant.

n.b. regarding price, note that £100-140 would be typical retail for a bottle of extremely good provenance (known stored in ideal conditions since release); if you are selling your bottles to a merchant, privately or at auction you would expect a substantial discount on the that imo.

Phil.

Derek T. wrote:

Rory James-Duff wrote:unfortunately bottle 5 & 6 were very disappointing - tainted in taste and colour (going very much more orange).

Andy, there are no reasons why a one day car journey could cause a wine to instantly lose colour and turn orange. That is a long term process, which is why I think the transport issue is a bit of a red herring here. I agree that being shaken up for 24 hours isn't going to help a bottle show well if opened immediately, but it will fully recover if left for a few days. I think this colour variation also rules out TCA as being the problem. As far as I know TCA does not cause a loss of colour, if fact I am sure I have heard a suggestion that it causes the reverse.

This definitely sounds like bottle variation to me, and the variation sounds so stark that I suspect some of the bottles might have been contaminated at the time of bottling, causing those bottles to evolve much more quickly than the others.

Derek,
It's been 4 years since he last had one and since I don't know his drinking experiences with any wines or Ports and since none of us where there I had to toss out any number of possible causes given the limited info presented. Especially since I've never seen an orange colored VP before. Of course this could be meant to mean a more lighter ruby red color than previous bottles.

Andy Velebil wrote:Derek,
It's been 4 years since he last had one

But the 4 good ones and 2 bad ones were all drunk before that 4 year break.

Andy Velebil wrote:I've never seen an orange colored VP before.

You have obviously never had Hutcheson 1970

Derek, Andy, Phil - thank you all very much indeed for taking the time to answer in such lengthy detail - much appreciated! You have given me some hope that I have had an unlucky bottle, or two, or treated one of them without the right care and attention they deserved. In any case, certainly enough hope to find an occasion to open another bottle and I will try to provide some more detail along the lines of your questions.

Storage - I cannot account for them between bottling and arriving at my fathers house in Scotland in 1978. Between 1978 and my 21st birthday in 1999 they were stored in a dark, cool, slightly damp cellar, built for purpose way back in the day. Whilst I paid many many visits to the cellar to stare at the crate (convinced my 21st birthday would never come) I can vouch that it was never moved, touched, or tampered with until 12:00 on the 26th May 1999!!! What a moment.

Sometime in 2003/04 7 remaining bottles were driven from Scotland to London, whereupon they spent 4 years in a dry room at b/w 15-17 degrees C (59-65 F) in purpose cut old clay pipe - the temp inside these pipes was always a touch cooler than the ambient temperature. They would have been exposed to some light, around the neck.

In 2008 they were moved a short distance and were immediately cellared in a small, cool (ave 14-15 C I would think), slightly damp, and dark cellar. They have not moved since.

Bottles 1-2 were left to stand for 2-3 hours before decanting several (7+) hours before drinking. May 1999.

Bottles 2-4 were treated in the same way. New Year 2000.

Bottle 5 (memory bit hazy) opened more quickly (less standing time) but still left several hours after initial (disappointing) tasting. Had vinous expertise on hand in form of my sister, a buyer for Corney & Barrow. She took exception to the smell I seem to recall, but more the taste. Cannot recall whether or not she specifically thought it was corked. In any case - it was no better 3, 8, or 10 hours later. Not sure of year... prob late 2002

Bottle 6 - opened a bit too fast, not properly decanted either. From all the research I have done over the last weeks, and your comments, it sounds as though this was a much bigger crime than I thought I knew it was at the time. But it was very similar to bottle 5. Late 2006

I do not know who bottled it - will have a look when I get home.

Colour - 'orange' would be an exaggeration. 'Leaning towards auburn' would be better.. but certainly not the rich deep ruby-purple of the first 4, or of 'mainstream' younger ports.

thanks again - very interesting hearing all your views - I have learnt a lot.

Rory

Rory,

Thanks, that gives us more to go on.

So your first bad bottle (No. 5) was tasted before they remainder of the case emigrated south and No. 6 was tasted in London with a similar result. In my view, that completely rules out the movement of the bottles.

It appears that both bad bottles were opened in a hurry. Whilst this can often cause the wine to show badly or look cloudy, I have never known it to cause it to smell bad or lose colour. So I'm not convinced that this is the problem either.

I'm sticking with my bottle variation theory

Derek

Rory, thanks for the detail.

It sounds from your description as though bottle 5 (prior to non-ideal storage) was just an unlucky bottle; bottle 6 being poor could be from the less ideal dry conditions (which would mean other bottles may be affected, especially if the light on bottle tops was daily direct sunlight vs occaisional light bulb which wouln't really matter) but could be due to the "not properly decanted" if contamination or other issues.

Regarding colour, at a recent Matrix tasting in London the 63s and 66s were markedly lighter than the 70s which still seem to be holding their colour well, especially Fonseca; but, they'll be nearing the point where there will be some noticeable change soon, probably (my opinion only, others may likely disagree), so don't be too worried by a little fading. Orange on the other hand would be wrong! (note to Andy - you say you've never had orange port - what about that bad bottle of T77 we had at the October Matrix...)

It definitely sounds to me like you should open another to see how things are; maybe treat yourself now, so you would have more confidence on whether to use one on a future occaision - or even better, bring one to an informal tasting - the 'topic' for the informal could even be "F70 Bottle Variation" and everyone brings an F70! (n.b. this suggestion has nothing to do with the fact that F70 is one of my favourite ports, honest...)

Rory,

You seem to be in very good hands, but I did want to welcome you to FTLOP and I hope you will continue to share your experience and impression of Ports you enjoy. Stick around and post when comfortable, as we all learn here together!



Best regards,

Roy

thanks everyone. Very interesting - I will let you know the result of the next bottle which you have convinced me to open. Might not be for a little while though.

Cheerio.

Just my two cents:

Simply put the Fonseca 1970 Vintage Port is one of the ten best Ports made from 1970 - 2009.