First big Port purchase *updated*

[Mike L.]

Hello, Just joined FTLOP. I've dabbled in port for a few years but now starting to purchase more. My wife is really enjoying port which makes the purchases easier. I just purchased a case of the Fonseca '70 and a case of Taylor '77 from European Resource. The Fonsecas look good except one bottle is a totally different shape than the other eleven. Its shorter and has a lead cap on it. Is this normal? Did they have different bottle shapes from that vintage? The Taylors have four with some discoloration on the "selo" and what looks like seepage under capsule or is this from the capsule itself? I'll attach pictures but was hoping to get some info from all of you with more old bottle experience with port. I don't want to complain to the store if this is all expected from its age. Thanks a bunch.

PS. Trying to add 2 pictures but says file too big any suggestions?

[Eric Menchen]

I just purchased a case of the Fonseca '70 and a case of Taylor '77 from European Resource. The Fonsecas look good except one bottle is a totally different shape than the other eleven. Its shorter and has a lead cap on it. Is this normal? Did they have different bottle shapes from that vintage?

The regulations were changed after the 1970s went into the bottle to prevent bulk shipping. 1970 and earlier vintages were often shipped in bulk and bottled at the destination as well as in Oporto. There were actually a number of different bottling arrangements. The end result it that yes, it is common to find different bottle shapes and capsules etc. from 1970 and earlier.

The Taylors have four with some discoloration on the "selo" and what looks like seepage under capsule or is this from the capsule itself? I'll attach pictures but was hoping to get some info from all of you with more old bottle experience with port.

Probably some seepage, but it is hard to say without the pictures.

I don't want to complain to the store if this is all expected from its age. Thanks a bunch.

I have purchased from EWR and think they are a good business, if not somewhat overpriced some of the time. If the Taylors have signs of seepage, I would expect them to note that in their listings. It would be nice if they would list the bottler for 1970 Fonseca, but this isn't done by a lot of merchants, and some times it isn't even known.

PS. Trying to add 2 pictures but says file too big any suggestions?

a) Make the files smaller, or
b) host the pictures elsewhere and embed them in your post with the "Img" tag, or
c) complain to Roy, as I think larger images should be allowed.

[Derek T.]

Hi Mike,

Welcome to

As Eric says, it is perfectly normal to find VP from 1970 and earlier in different shaped/coloured bottles. If the labels state which wine merchant bottled the wine please let us know and we can perhaps give you some more information.

If the Taylor has a metal capsule the staining on the selo could just be a reaction between the paper and the metal. Pictures would help us confirm one way or the other.

Whatever the true answers are to the above questions you now have two cases of fabulous VP to enjoy with your wife - Unless of course, like me, your partner's interest in Port proves to be short-lived, in which case you might have two cases of fabulous VP to enjoy on your own

[Mike L.]

Bottles don't say which merchant other than imported by European Wine Resource. I will work on pictures, and ask Roy about the same. I did ask Mike at EWR to let me know if any bottle issues and he thought the numbers of bottles that they had wouldn't be any issue. The fills look high shoulder, with port seeming to tolerate oxidation better would people keep bottles or ask to send back. I know its hard to voice without pictures, hopefully I can get them on.

[Andy Velebil]

Bottles don't say which merchant other than imported by European Wine Resource. I will work on pictures, and ask Roy about the same. I did ask Mike at EWR to let me know if any bottle issues and he thought the numbers of bottles that they had wouldn't be any issue. The fills look high shoulder, with port seeming to tolerate oxidation better would people keep bottles or ask to send back. I know its hard to voice without pictures, hopefully I can get them on.

Mike,

to the Forum, glad to have you with us.

Congrats on your first major Port buy...I'm sure it won't be your last, especially with this group of Port-Pushers. The only thing that worries me is your descriprtion of being "high shoulder." These VP's should still be into the neck, or at the very least, base neck. If not, and unless you were informed of this ahead of time, I'd send them back.

A picture of the fill level or overall bottles would help a lot. If you have issues posting them you can email them to me (use the link at the right, under my profile name.

[Mike L.]

Here is another try at posting pictures. As clarification I think the fill is at least high shoulder. It is very hard to tell through dark glass. Thanks for all your help.
http://mikelwine.shutterfly.com

[Derek T.]

Mike,

The Fonseca with the silver cap looks to be English bottled and has a very good fill level.

The other Fonseca is an Oporto bottling and was probably shipped ex-cellars (i.e. bottled and stored in the Fonseca cellar for some time prior to shipping). The tell-tale sign being the existence of the selo over the top of the lead capsule. The capsule would have gone on at the time of bottling and the selo, and probably the label, at the time of shipping. You will notice that the label on the first bottle just says "Produce of Portugal" at the bottom whereas the other has what I think says "Produced and bottled in Portugal" (or similar) and the name "Guimaraens" printed separately. This is another sign that this one is bottled by the shipper in Oporto.

Both of these bottles look very good to me. Which one do you have 11 of?

The Taylor bottles are definitely an Oporto bottling as by that time it was illegal to ship VP in bulk for bottling in England or anywhere else. The selo being over the seal again suggests an ex-cellars shipment. It is difficult to tell whether or not the discolouration is from a small amount of seepage or from a chemical reaction with the metal capsule. You will know the answer as soon as you remove the first capsule. In any event, if it is seepage it looks to have been a very small amount and to have happened a long time ago.

Hope this helps.

[Mike L.]

Thanks for the input. The shorter Fonseca bottle is the single one. The taller one, "ex cellar", I have eleven of. Would seepage of this amount concern you? Should I open one and if tastes ok keep. It would be easy if I opened one and cork was ok.

[Derek T.]

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the appearance of these bottles and I think opening one would be a good approach.

[Andy Velebil]

It's difficult to tell, as some of the 1977 Taylors have what appears to be "pushed" corks. That is the cork is not flush with the top of the bottle. This is normally a sign of heat damage. However, I've seen a lot of '77 Taylors where the cork simply wasn't seated flush and there was no signs of heat damage. The only thing that worries me is what appears to be some seepage onto the Selo, at the base of the capsule. As Derek pointed out, you won't know for sure until you remove the capsule.

I'd suggest removing the capsule on one and inspecting it. If all looks right then you should be fine.

The Fonseca's look good from what I can tell.

[Mike L.]

Thanks all I will let you know after I open a capsule.

[Tom Archer]

I have seen a good many Taylor 77's with crusting round the capsule and/or selo stains. I've also opened a couple, which revealed saturated corks, but good wine within.

My take is that quite a large proportion of the corks used for that bottling were less than perfect, and I'd suggest giving priority to those bottles that show crusting when selecting bottles to drink.

[Mike L.]

Thanks Tom.

[Mike L.]

I opened the capsule and found dried old wine and a completely stained and elevated cork, see new pictures:
http://www.mikelwine.shutterfly.com/pictures/20

The question now is would anyone still keep the bottles? For a discount? Or even the normal bottles with the fear that they were exposed to the same environment?

I just want to say that Mike at EWR has been excellent and apologetic today. He has offered to replace or refund per my desires, so I can only say good things about his response.

[Glenn E.]

Like Tom, I have had several older Fonsecas and Taylors with slightly pushed corks like that. (Tom has had many more than I have, though!) The staining on and under the capsule also looks like what I've seen in the past.

Honestly, I still wouldn't be too worried about it. It's not optimal because it could mean that the bottle has been poorly stored at some point in its lifetime, but it does seem like a lot of older bottles look like that. I can't even say with certainty off the top of my head whether or not I've ever had a Taylor that old with a cork that hasn't been at least a little bit pushed.

So really, I think it's completely up to you. EWR is a great place, so you could propose to "purchase" one bottle and open it, and if you don't like the result you'll return the rest. Then open the one that looks the worst and see what it's like.

[Eric Menchen]

I'd drink that one with those steaks tonight and then decide

[Mike L.]

Glenn, I think that sounds reasonable. Mike at EWR offered to give me a 15% discount on the seepers. With this in mind your idea seems like a good one.

Eric, laughing a lot at your response. I almost retook the pictures when I saw my poor "framing" of the shot but thought everyone on the board would like the steaks. They were very good by the way.

[Tom Archer]

If you divert your gaze away from the steaks and look at the slight protusion of the cork, you can see that the edges of the cork are crushed and spread. This indicates that the corking machine met more resistance than usual when inserting the cork, and failed to drive it fully home - this is not uncommon, and not a cause for concern.

A cork that has been set proud due to excess heat is unlikely to show any sign of crushing.

[Eric Menchen]

You don't think that is just the natural spread of the cork Tom? I may have to experiment next time I'm using a corking machine.

[Tom Archer]

You don't think that is just the natural spread of the cork

The angles look too acute, and the top very slightly domed - typical of a cork that put up a fight!