Sensitivity to TCA in wine and Port

[Roy Hersh]

I have always believed that I am a bit more sensitive to TCA than most. Possibly it has something to do with the size of my probascis, but that aside, during group tastings, I frequently am the first to speak out that a wine is corked.

During our trip this happened a handful of times. I can think of a bottle of Port or Douro wine that on about four occasions the winemaker was either not aware of the TCA (or in the very last case) thought I was nuts. In some of these situations, several individuals OR the entire group did not pick up the TCA until much later (if at all) and probably agreed with the latter winemaker that something was wrong with my nose and/or taste buds.

I wondered if it was mostly due to inexperience, lack of sensing the TCA or being intimidated to speak up in front of the winemaker/owner ... re: the wine being corked. Although some may view my being so vocal about this as being "rude", it is my belief that it serves the winemaker and guests, to prevent others from having their tastes/views skewed by drinking tainted wines. I hope it did not come across as crass.

[Andy Velebil]

Roy, you did not come across as "Crass" at all. In the case of the last wine maker you speak of, he was clearly wrong and you were right.

I am not super sensitive to TCA, but I can recognize it. Though I freely admit you are much more experienced with picking up TCA than I. In the case of the last corked bottle we had I didn't pick it up on the nose right away, but when I tasted it there was clearly a funky taste on the finish that was not right. Of course, there was another issue I was occupied with at the time.

As to being afraid of speaking our minds in front of winemakers. At first it was a little intimidating, both tasting and asking questions, when you have heads of companies in the room with you. But after a day or so, I relaxed quite a bit and settled in. As a matter of fact, i brought up at the last dinner that one bottle was not right. Maybe slightly corked (which was not the case) or an off bottle, and having the producer sitting next to me I was very comfortable in bringing this up.

I also agree that it is in the best interest of the winemaker to know if his product is faulty so our views of that bottle is not skewed by a faulty bottle. In fact, one of the producers replaced a rather expensive bottle that was corked, just so we could get the right experience with it.

[Jay Powers]

In the case of the last bottle you refer to, I did not detect it being corked. When the second bottle was opened I could tell that they were different, but not by much, and not noticable (to me at least) until the two glasses were side by side. When side by side, although the difference was slightly noticable, it did not seem to take away from the "corked wine" to my taste. I'm still not sure I would call it corked as to my taste it could have been anything, just different.

As a chemist I do know exactly what TCA smells like. Like you said, I think that you may be more sensitive to TCA (than me at least). Probably good for me, as I may enjoy the ever-so-slightly corked wine without noticing (handy if its from my own celler with no ready replacement!)

Jay

[Roy Hersh]

Jay,

I am in full agreement that having more sensitivity to TCA is often times a double edged sword. In the case of that last wine, I did not have to taste it to realize how badly corked it was, the nose showed the telltale signs that were not mistakeable.

But we had other examples at Graham's, Vesuvio and also Quinta do Crasto, most of which were low levels of taint.

[Derek T.]

Roy,

I recall at least 3 times where you declared a wine/port corked and can't remember a winemaker/host disagreeing with you. Perhaps this happened after Alex and I left the party :?

As you know I have almost no ability to detect TCA. When replacement bottles were opened I could detect a difference but could not have put it down to TCA without guidance from someone like yourself. I don't find your actions crass, merely telling the truth and giving the winemaker the opportunity to give a good impression by replacing the bottle with a good one.

On the subject of being shy, I'm sure you recall putting your head in your hands at least twice when I asked our very important and famous hosts why they didn't stop lurking around on this website and start posting - shy? I don't know what the word means
Derek

[Al B.]

I think the ability to pick up TCA comes partly with experience and partly from having sensitive "smell buds". While I do not necessarily pick up the TCA taint straight away from a mildly tainted bottle, I do understand the impact that TCA can have on the way a wine shows. Put two glasses next to each other, one from a tainted bottle and one from a clean bottle, and the tainted glass smells flat and lifeless.

Mind you, there were a couple of bottles we tasted from which suffered from a little bottle stink and took a while in the glass before they showed at their best.

I was also very surprised at how little decanting time most producers gave their wines before pouring them for us to taste and how - despite this short air contact time - good the wines were. From what I read on this forum, most people here find their wines peak after anything between 2 hours and 3 days of air contact time.

Alex

[Moses Botbol]

Once you had a bottle with a strong TCA taste, you'll know it in varying degrees from that point on. Taste is subjective, but once you look for a particular taste, one's senses can hone in on it.

Two weeks ago I had a perfect looking 83 Cockburn’s that was high fill, perfect cork, etc… and the TCA taste was so pronounced it was totally undrinkable…. Right down the drain… Oh well. Luckily there was a 70 Fonseca to back it up that was great.

[Roy Hersh]

I find that I get TCA, long before I ever get to taste it. I sense it on the nose, much more pronounced (especially in Port where robust and sweet flavors can mask TCA early on). That said, I have had 3 bottles of corked 1983 Cockburn in the past few years and it worries me hearing of your experience too. All 3 bottles of mine were cellared for many years and were opened for very special occasions. I hate when that happens!

Some people decscribe TCA as flattening out the flavors and aromas, but to me it is a significant smell that is clearly off, usually wet cardboard or a musty note that is unlike what is normally found with old bottles stink. The palate then usually is just a way to guage the accuracy of the nose.

I watched while others on the trip vigorously swirled their glass in order to get a better sense of the TCA. I did not want to make a big deal about this, but with TCA the most obvious way to smell it, is to let your glass sit undisturbed and the taint will be far more noticeable than when you swirl and somewhat integrate it with the fruit that has survived.

[Derek T.]

I watched while others on the trip vigorously swirled their glass in order to get a better sense of the TCA. I did not want to make a big deal about this, but with TCA the most obvious way to smell it, is to let your glass sit undisturbed and the taint will be far more noticeable than when you swirl and somewhat integrate it with the fruit that has survived.

:hoppingmad: Why didn't you tell us on the trip?!?! - I was almost certainly one of the vigorous swirllers so have missed the chance to learn what you are smelling

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

If you can afford my airfare to the UK, I'd be happy to bring over numerous TCA infected bottles for you to learn from, my friend.

[Eric Duprey]

Roy-

I must say that I was very glad when you pointed out the TCA in some of the ports we had on the trip. I never really understood what 'corked' meant and I thought it was something like bottle stink. In some cases when it was not too severe, the only thing I noticed was a complete lack of fruit on the nose- but a severely corked bottle is unmistakable once someone actually points it out to you. Tonight I opened up a bottle of chianti that was severely corked, and I'm glad that I understood the problem and didn't just think that I disliked the wine.

[Moses Botbol]

I find that I get TCA, long before I ever get to taste it.
That said, I have had 3 bottles of corked 1983 Cockburn in the past few years and it worries me hearing of your experience too. All 3 bottles of mine were cellared for many years and were opened for very special occasions. I hate when that happens!

Well, we had another bottle of '83 Cockurn along with a Magnum '85 Grahams... What an afternoon. Seemed like a lot of port for three people, but it had to be done! Enjoyed them with a Sir Winston and Sacho Sancho cuban cigars.

The Cockburn was perfect this time! No must, no stink... Both bottles were TCA free!

The '85 Grahams was something else! This is the first magnum I have tried and am impressed with how they age compared to a 750. If I could only get my buddy to open his '77 Double Magnum Taylor!

[Roy Hersh]

Dear Mosebotbol,

Seriously?

A double Mag of '77 Taylor? I have some of these in Mags but have never even seen 3.0 liters of this VP. I'd love to know the story of how your friend came about finding his bottle(s) of this great Port.

Congrats on the Cockburn '83. Please do post a full TN on this and the Graham's 1985, as we would all be interested in more details. Thanks!

ALSO ...

Please do us all a favor and add your first and last name to your profile so that we can address you properly. 8) With the new software, only those with first and last names and their full disclosure of location will be able to continue posting here, so you might as well beat us to it.

Thank you... now back to Port.

[Moses Botbol]

There's a wine wholesaler around Boston that specializes in rare wines and port. He "officially" sells only to liquor stores and restaurants, but we buy wine and port from him. His prices are rock bottom, bar none. He dropped my 1985 Dow Magnum :-( I could only imagine the puddle and anguish.

The wholesaler located the bottle for him. It has very high fill on it and comes in a wooden box. I'll find any other details on it, but he mentioned there were only 3 in North America, and maybe he's right on that? Very impressive looking indeed.

[Roy Hersh]

Hi Moses,

Finding ANY 3 liter bottles of Vintage Port in the USA is very difficult if next to impossible. Harder still, are the old format of Tregnums that most people have rarely even heard of in this country. Some are still seen in the UK though. Although I own one 3 liter VP, I'd love a Tregnum one day, just for kicks.

Anyway, don't feel too bad. I kicked over a Mag of 1966 Graham's at one time and talk about a puddle. I was able to save about a full bottle in the bottom half of the Mag and fortunately (if you can call losing a great bottle like this) the next night my tasting group was coming over for a fun time with an outstanding and unexpected dessert wine.

Thanks for adding your name!