Question: Cellaring non-vintage ports (and others)?

[Frank T]

Lately, I've been entering my wine and (smaller but growing) port cellar into CellarTracker. One thing that surprised me is the general dating system used for "Drinking Window" on many of the ports and other fortified wines and the like.

For instance, I bought some 1999 Dow Crusted Port lately for a holiday party and (as with much party buying) am likely to have a few bottles leftover when all is said and done. CellarTracker suggests that the Drinking Window for this port is 2005-2006. That seems very narrow to me. Does anyone have a better figure? Can I cellar this longer without letting it begin to seriously decline? Or is the CT figure a good guideline?

I feel relatively comfortable with my vintage ports (and even keeping many past the end of the Drinking Window suggestion...for instance, I will probably hang onto some of the '83s past the 2015 window close), but LBV and NV ports are new to me.

So, I guess in a longwinded way, I'm really just asking, how long can I cellar and age the NVs and LBVs?

Thanks!

And sorry for blathering on! :)

[Roy Hersh]

The folks on CT are mostly using the guidelines that they have read from Robert Parker or James Suckling. Both of those excelelnt sources, are VERY conservative with their drinking windows (IMHO, to the point of being next to worthless when it comes to Port). For example, having a top notch producer's VP from an outstanding vintage like 2000 given a drinking window of 12-20 years is silly, isn't it?

To respond directly to your question though, non-vintage wines and their aging curves, have more to do with the way they are vinified. If they have been fined and filtered, two processes that tend to strip away the Port's ability to age in the bottle ... then the drinking window is shorter. If an LBV (per se) is Unfiltered, than it will potentially live considerably longer in the bottle and drink well for a decade or more, vintage/producer dependent.

To get specific drinking window suggestions from some of the more accomplished Port savvy consumers, you have come to the right place. But no two bottlings are the same, even from the same year ... and you can compare this to cars or anything else.

My suggestion is to ask your specific questions here about the lifespan expectations of your Ports and we'll be happy to respond with "real life" experience.

[Frank T]

Thanks, Roy!

If you would indulge me, then, I'm going to list my all of ports and maybe people can weigh in on anything they've had experience with...then I can set the drinking windows manually (not that I live and die by CT, but it's nice to look at a certain year and pull some bottles from the back of the cellar for the next few months :)). Obviously, even one or two comments about a specific port would be a big help.

I apologize in advance if this list is too long (I included all my fortified/dessert wines, except sauternes and botrytis and such, since I am not very expert in any of this). Thanks so much!!!

1999 Dow Porto Crusted
2003 Dow Porto Vintage
2003 Fonseca Porto Vintage
2000 Fonseca Porto Vintage
1992 Fonseca Porto Vintage
1994 Graham Porto Vintage
1991 Graham Porto Vintage
1983 Graham Porto Vintage
2005 Justin Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon Obtuse
2004 Justin Vineyard Obtuse (Traditional)
2003 Justin Vineyard Obtuse (Traditional)
1978 Krohn Porto Colheita
1966 Krohn Porto Colheita
1960 Krohn Porto Colheita
1958 Krohn Porto Colheita
1989 Offley Boa Vista Porto Vintage
1982 Offley Boa Vista Porto Vintage
1974 Quinta do Noval Porto Colheita
2003 Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage
2000 Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage
1994 Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage
2000 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Late Bottled Vintage
1991 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Quinta de Vargellas
2003 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage
2000 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage
1983 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage
N.V. Trevor Jones "Jonesy" Old Tawny Port
1994 Warre Porto Vintage
1985 Warre Porto Vintage
N.V. Yalumba Muscat Museum Reserve
1999 Paolo Bea Sagrantino di Montefalco Passito
2001 Kent Rasmussen Zinfandel Late Harvest

N.V. Alvear Montilla-Moriles Capataz Fino
N.V. Alvear Pedro Ximénez Montilla-Moriles Solera 1927
1927 D'Oliveiras Madeira ex-Adegas do Torreão
1969 D'Oliveiras Madeira Sercial ex-Adegas do Torreão
N.V. Bodegas Hidalgo Manzanilla de Sanlúcar de Barrameda La Gitana
N.V. Rutherglen Estates Muscat Rutherglen
N.V. Bodegas Toro Albala Montilla-Moriles Es un Vino Viejisimo Solera de 1922
1971 Bodegas Toro Albala Montilla-Moriles Gran Reserva

[Tom Archer]

Roy's response with regard to the drinking windows volunteered by Suckling et al - was very restrained.

I will be more direct.

Suckling hasn't got a clue when it comes to Port drinking windows.

If you read his book that I think was published in 1991, you would believe that all the 1985 vintage ports would now be in terminal decline - yet in practice, most are not yet fully mature...

The mantra that filtered wines in stoppered bottles do not improve with cellaring is not entirely true - in my experience, they do not deteriorate readily, and some (notably 10yr Tawnies) can improve considerably.

Looking at your list, I'm puzzled by the inclusion of Offley '82 and '89 vintage ports - they did not declare those years, but they may have made LBV's.

Of the other bottles, I would say drink through and be done with the wannabe ports from other countries, and don't worry about any of the others - some will not improve further, but none are in urgent need of consumption.

Tom

[simon Lisle]

I would agree with you there Tom,Suckling's book is handy for looking at the smaller port producers for information but Broadbent is closer to the mark on drinking windows.But even then I don't always agree with him.

[Frank T]

Thanks, everyone. It's really appreciated. :)

Looking at your list, I'm puzzled by the inclusion of Offley '82 and '89 vintage ports - they did not declare those years, but they may have made LBV's.

I'm sure you are correct about that...I simply cut and pasted that list from the fortified/dessert report generated by CellarTracker. I should have checked it more carefully and apologize for that. CT lists those two years as vintages (rather than NV release years, at least as far as I can tell, so I'll look into correcting that). Also, interestingly, after a quick web search, sotres like K&L also seem to be selling those ports without really discerning between vintage and LBV or NV release years...

http://www.klwines.com/product.asp?sku=1019080

Go figure.

[Al B.]

Wantok

Could we ask you to post your name please. Its always nicer to be able to reply to questions like this with a real name to refer to.

While you've already had lots of answers, I thought I might contribute a couple of observations here for you as well.

I recently had a Crusted Port that was bottled in 1965 or 1966 and was opened in 2006. It was wonderful. While it was clear that it had been cellared in perfect conditions, the wine was amazing and was sweet, ethereal and lovely. I don't think it had another 40 years of life ahead of it, but don't let anyone tell you that well made and well cellared Crusted Port can't mature in bottle for decades.

I can't comment specifically on the non-Portuguese wines you've listed, but I can say that all the Ports you've listed can be drunk with enjoyment now or in 20 years time, with the exceptions of:
1989 and 1982 Offley - I would suggest that neither of these wines will be improving and both might now be in slow decline. I suggest you drink sooner rather than later.
Noval 2000 - I tasted a bottle recently and felt that this wine has now shut down. I would not recommend opening this until, say, after 2010. Other 2000 wines may have the same problem, but I have not had the chance to taste them.
Taylor 2000 LBV - made to be drunk young, but I did drink a 44 year old LBV last year and it was still very enjoyable.

I guess there is no hard and fast rule. Everyone has their own drinking guide, but on some of those more famous drinking guides we would not even consider enjoying the fabled wines of 1931 or 1945. I'd summarise by saying that with the exception, perhaps, of wines that are going through their dumb period, that its entirely up to you whether to drink in the flush of fruity youth or with the ethereal tones of ancient old age - or somewhere in between.

But most importantly, enjoy them ..... and post your notes here so we can see what you thought!

Alex

[Frank T]

Thanks. That's really helpful.

My name is Frank, by the way. I was going to put it in my signature but am new and just never got around to it. :)

[Moses Botbol]

Hard to figure when a port goes bad in my book. Stuff from I've had from the late 19th century tastes great, as well as 1935 and 1927. Unless the bottle went bad due to other reasons, I am yet to have a port that was really past its prime.

[Roy Hersh]

Wow, I wish I could say the same. Like TCA, maybe I am just more sensitive to it. I cut my teeth on 1963 Sandeman and can tell you that no matter how well stored the bottle may have been, it will be past its prime. I can offer dozens of examples, but you get the point.

Port does not just fall off the cliff though and it has a broader band when looking at the life curve on a chart. When it passes its prime, the secondary nuances turn to tertiary ones and don't become unpleasant. They become far more Tawny in style and have much more in common with Tawny than a ruby at that point. I am sure you have probably had over the hill VPs but might have enjoyed the experience, so it did not register in that way. Unlike a typical red wine that is past its prime, you can still enjoy a VP for years, as long as you appreciate Tawny Port too.

[Roy Hersh]

Frank,

I am going to go through this quickly and present generalizations for a few of the Ports that I have not tried, supplying you with peak drinkability. Of course that should not stop you from approaching these earlier if you should so choose:

1999 Dow Porto Crusted - best within the next 5-13 years
2003 Dow Porto Vintage - best at 30 years old (prime time)
2003 Fonseca Porto Vintage - best at 40-60 years old (prime time)
2000 Fonseca Porto Vintage - ditto
1992 Fonseca Porto Vintage - best at 30 years old
1994 Graham Porto Vintage - circa 2025 - 2040
1991 Graham Porto Vintage - drink at around 25-35 years of bottle age
1983 Graham Porto Vintage - drinks young but well now and will reach peak in 10-15 yrs.

1978 Krohn Porto Colheita - depends on when it was bottled. Drink now.
1966 Krohn Porto Colheita - will be very enjoyable for the next 10-20 yrs.
1960 Krohn Porto Colheita - drink now
1958 Krohn Porto Colheita - a middling effort that should be consumed soon
1989 Offley Boa Vista Porto Vintage - drink now through 2020.
1982 Offley Boa Vista Porto Vintage - drink up and don't cellar for long
1974 Quinta do Noval Porto Colheita - R U lucky! Years of fun ... spec'l occasion!
2003 Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage - anytime during your lifetime
2000 Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage - 30-40 years from vintage
1994 Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage - 40-50 years from vintage
2000 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Late Bottled Vintage - drink now
1991 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Quinta de Vargellas - this will be great for at least another 20 years.
2003 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage - at 30-40 years it will reach peak
2000 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage - your grandkids will enjoy it
1983 Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage - drink now or over the next decade
N.V. Trevor Jones "Jonesy" Old Tawny Port - why wait? Small "p" in that port.
1994 Warre Porto Vintage - 20-30 years of pleasure ahead
1985 Warre Porto Vintage - 15 more good years of peak performance

[Frank T]

Thanks, Roy. I have a few bottles of most, so I might try some in the younger end of the range you suggest while saving some for the full peak. I really appreciate it. :)

That also gives me a few bottles to stick at the front of the rack to pull out this year and next...which is always nice, too.

Thanks again (Roy and everyone else)!

-Frank

[Moses Botbol]

Wow, I wish I could say the same. Like TCA, maybe I am just more sensitive to it.

Actually, I had a Taylor 10 last weekend that tasted off; not as bad as the Cockburns a few weeks ago. I assume it was TCA? It was at a restaurant and I was debating returning it as they poured a good sized glass and that took forever. I thought I would be awaiting forever again to get something else.

I never would've thought I would tasted that in a young Tawny.

[Roy Hersh]

How do you know that the Taylor 10 year old Tawny was not open for six months sitting on that restaurant's shelf? That is the issue I have with buying Port at a restaurant when the bottle is not opened in front of me. Oftentimes, the wine is not fresh. Off notes do develop in bottles left for months. I am not saying that this is definitely the case with your bottle, but it is just as likely, actually far more likely than TCA.

[Moses Botbol]

How do you know that the Taylor 10 year old Tawny was not open for six months sitting on that restaurant's shelf? That is the issue I have with buying Port at a restaurant when the bottle is not opened in front of me. Oftentimes, the wine is not fresh. Off notes do develop in bottles left for months. I am not saying that this is definitely the case with your bottle, but it is just as likely, actually far more likely than TCA.

I do not know how old the bottle is and you're right on that one. I was at another place and the port was off and bartender said he opened that week; he replaced it with a better port at the same price. I do think now, that the bottle had more of off notes rather than TCA, but either way it was thumbs down.

The worst thing with buying a glass or port at a restaurant is when it totally room temperature and has a strong alcohol nose.

[Tom Archer]

The worst thing with buying a glass or port at a restaurant is when it totally room temperature and has a strong alcohol nose

Agreed. Very few restaurants know how to present port - the need to serve it cool - but not chilled (unless white or tawny) is not widely known.

Tom

[Moses Botbol]

Agreed. Very few restaurants know how to present port - the need to serve it cool - but not chilled (unless white or tawny) is not widely known.

Tom

Same with wine. Even at many nice places the wine is piss warm...

[Derek T.]

I stayed at a country house hotel in Jedburgh, Scotland earlier this week and took a glass of Fonseca Guimaraens 97 - when I asked the owner when the bottle had been opened he said "no longer than 2 weeks so it's still fresh" :? - he then warned me that I should be carefull towards the end of my glass as the wine may hae thrown some sediment since being opened - just as he said this I took a grape sized lump of crust into my mouth :x - not only had this wine een open for 2 weeks but it hadn't even been decanted.

My entire experience of VP oer the years that I hae been drinking it is that it is almost impossible to find a restaurant or bar that knows how to serve it. That is why I am sitting here now in a hotel in Dublin sipping a Sandeman Ruby 8)

Derek