faked Pather

[Andreas Platt]

probably not, since this is a PaLther (sic) - so no fake, but a genuine Palther.

http://wine.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=5159&lotNo=356

I have two bottles of Pather - these look very different.

Here a pic of a real Pather

https://www.garrafeiranacional.com/rari ... _pt_12325/

[Reidar Andersen]

Yeah, the real one look like that, but unfortunately, on mine, Patrick Grubb put his own sticker over the P...Like the 1780 B... Same there. His sticker over the B..

He should have put his sticker on the opposite side... Anyway his sticker is a quality stamp..

[Andreas Platt]

Reidar,

my bottles look like the garrafeira ones.

I understand that yours are similar but Grubb put his sticker on the bottles (you have a picture of this?).

What do you think about the Heritage bottle? For me this is fake; I wouldn't bid a Dollar on these, would you?

[Justin A]

I would love to hear more commentary on this matter.

[Reidar Andersen]

Have no picture now, but I can see the P under Patricks label... But I can't believe that someone have repainted an original bottle to make it look nicer with wrong spelling.. . But I would bid $ 10 for it... Nice souvenir

[Eric Ifune]

Restenciled?
Didn't I hear somwhere that one of the Borges family reconditioned his bottles at the Domain?
Probably need Mannie Berk's input.
But I wouldn't bid either unless I got more info.

[Andreas Platt]

Restenciled?
Didn't I hear somwhere that one of the Borges family reconditioned his bottles at the Domain?
Probably need Mannie Berk's input.
But I wouldn't bid either unless I got more info.

Well, I know a little bit about the bottles and their heritage as well as who did the last (official) re-engarrafado and when.

I would be HIGHLY surprised if these:

1) got rebottled and recorked again lately
2) got replaced bottles
3) received a new stencil
4) received a wrong lettering
5) didn't receive a IVBAM paper seal
6) didn't receive a Borges seal aon the new wax/lacquer capsule

But what do I know.

[Eric Menchen]

Reidar said he would bid $10. I'll top that, $20.

[Bradley Bogdan]

This is exactly one of those instances where I almost hate the buyer (assuming there is one, and assuming its the bad counterfeit it seems to be) as much as the faker/auction house. If you're going to drop big coin on ANY high end product, get some education first. If I hit the lotto tomorrow, I wouldn't go out and start buying top end art without some counsel or books or something. Why? Because I know very little about high end art. I wouldn't be able to tell you why what painting is a good buy or not, or what painting is authentic or not, even if its pretty obvious.

That said, assuming someone faked this bottle and meant to spell pather, c'mon. Do you not even care? If you're going to go into a profession/side job where quality of work counts, give a damn. If you want to punch a clock, find a job asking people if they want fries with that. Great art (and probably wine) forgers are true craftsmen/women. If you know your product really well, and have the skills to replicate it and not have it be noticed, that's hard work and talent come together. I understand such professions have a learning curve, but one should be able to spell the name of the maker of what their forging.

Ok, rant over.

[Roy Hersh]

The truth is coming ... be patient!

[Frank Martell]

Hello Gentlemen,

I am Frank Martell, new to the board today and in full disclosure - I am the director of the wine department for Heritage Auctions. I am also fortunate enough to call Roy a friend, though we finally met in person fairly recently. I hope you don't mind my input but I thought it appropriate to publicy address the question of this 1720 Pather and set the record straight against the current of incorrect assumptions being made.

This bottle of 1720 Pather we are offering is consigned by a FTLOP member who is also a mutual friend to Roy and I. When I inspected the wine I noted the same inconsistencies you have brought to account and I of course inquired as to the history of this bottle. The consignor is able to provide records demonstrating that the wine was originally purchased from Mannie Berk and that he too had raised concerns about the misspelling, among other things. This is the explanation that Mannie provided to him a couple years ago:

"But from your description, your bottle of Pather has to be one of 15 bottles Henrique Borges inherited from his father in 1989--sharing equally with his five siblings. In 1989, at the time of the distribution, each bottle was given a simple handwritten Avery's-style label, which your bottle may still have. (I don't recall for sure if Henrique left the hand-written label on his bottles after they were stenciled.)

Henrique had all his bottles stenciled and recorked with plain black wax a few years later by the H.M. Borges company, while his brother Joao had his own label made, bearing a photograph of his grandfather, H.M. Borges. The other four children did nothing with their bottles; they only have the small hand-written label on them.

To your question of why the bottles were stenciled "Palther" instead of "Pather," I've always attributed it to a mistake by whoever did the stenciling at Borges. (No one working there in the late 1990s would have known anything about this wine.) All I can tell you is that the stenciling on every one of his bottles has the "L" in it.

The name "Pather" itself is shrouded in mystery. The Borges family generally says it's because it was the oldest and greatest wine H.M. Borges owned ... the "father" (or Pater) of his wines. But then, why is the "H" in it? The story was that H.M.'s sons didn't trust their brother-in-law, and they deliberately misspelled the name to catch him if he tried to steal any of the wine.

You're right that misspellings on old Madeiras are not infrequent. No less an authority than Graham Blandy sometimes spelled Terrantez with an extra "R": Terrantrez. He wrote it that way sometimes in his personal records and was probably responsible for the label in the attached photo. I have never seen anyone else spell it the same way.

I hope this helps. If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask."

I know auction houses are getting a bad rap right now, and deservedly so in some cases. I would be a fool to downplay the growing awareness of counterfeit wines - and on the contrary, I'll tell you that the problem is under-reported, rather than over-reported. Additionally, I worry that the problem is going to get far worse before it gets better. In the case of old wines that have been counterfeited recently, we have at least some hope of catching mistakes made by sloppy counterfeiters. It is hard to artificially age a label, a cork and a capsule! On the other hand, consider the fact that 2009 Lafite is already worth thousands, and it is already being counterfeited - and those counterfeits in 20 years will have old corks, old labels and old capsules, just like their authentic counterparts. As an honest guy who pays his mortgage and feeds his family in this industry, I'll tell you we are dismayed. We desperately need a reliable technology and we desperately need producers to help where they can.

But the fact is we do not have that technology yet, and we do not have the cooperation of many producers. Consider this: those who have the most information about the products they sell are unwilling to help an honest auction house protect their own consumers. While it is highly fashionable to bash the auctioneers these days, we are not all crooked, and the problem does not exist solely in the vacuum of the auction market. Speaking for myself and a few select colleagues - we try really hard to get it right, and we will never offer something where there is a preponderance of evidence suggesting a bottle is incorrect. As was the case here, we do our due diligence and take our investigations a good ways back before we are comfortable selling a collection. We are happy to be shown our mistakes if and when someone comes forth with conclusive information We spend a lot of time talking with colleagues about new fakes we encounter or asking for assistance when we need more information. It is extremely easy to withdraw property before an auction, and on the rare occasion a suspect bottle gets by our inspection we are happy to accept a return. You have to believe that I hold my reputation, my career and my love for wine as more valuable than the modest commission we hope to earn in the sale of this lot. Never the less, I have complete confidence in the bottle we are selling and hope this [far too lengthy] post is given your fair consideration.

Cheers,

Frank

[Bradley Bogdan]

Hello Gentlemen,

I am Frank Martell, new to the board today and in full disclosure - I am the director of the wine department for Heritage Auctions. I am also fortunate enough to call Roy a friend, though we finally met in person fairly recently. I hope you don't mind my input but I thought it appropriate to publicy address the question of this 1720 Pather and set the record straight against the current of incorrect assumptions being made.

This bottle of 1720 Pather we are offering is consigned by a FTLOP member who is also a mutual friend to Roy and I. When I inspected the wine I noted the same inconsistencies you have brought to account and I of course inquired as to the history of this bottle. The consignor is able to provide records demonstrating that the wine was originally purchased from Mannie Berk and that he too had raised concerns about the misspelling, among other things. This is the explanation that Mannie provided to him a couple years ago:

"But from your description, your bottle of Pather has to be one of 15 bottles Henrique Borges inherited from his father in 1989--sharing equally with his five siblings. In 1989, at the time of the distribution, each bottle was given a simple handwritten Avery's-style label, which your bottle may still have. (I don't recall for sure if Henrique left the hand-written label on his bottles after they were stenciled.)

Henrique had all his bottles stenciled and recorked with plain black wax a few years later by the H.M. Borges company, while his brother Joao had his own label made, bearing a photograph of his grandfather, H.M. Borges. The other four children did nothing with their bottles; they only have the small hand-written label on them.

To your question of why the bottles were stenciled "Palther" instead of "Pather," I've always attributed it to a mistake by whoever did the stenciling at Borges. (No one working there in the late 1990s would have known anything about this wine.) All I can tell you is that the stenciling on every one of his bottles has the "L" in it.

The name "Pather" itself is shrouded in mystery. The Borges family generally says it's because it was the oldest and greatest wine H.M. Borges owned ... the "father" (or Pater) of his wines. But then, why is the "H" in it? The story was that H.M.'s sons didn't trust their brother-in-law, and they deliberately misspelled the name to catch him if he tried to steal any of the wine.

You're right that misspellings on old Madeiras are not infrequent. No less an authority than Graham Blandy sometimes spelled Terrantez with an extra "R": Terrantrez. He wrote it that way sometimes in his personal records and was probably responsible for the label in the attached photo. I have never seen anyone else spell it the same way.

I hope this helps. If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask."

I know auction houses are getting a bad rap right now, and deservedly so in some cases. I would be a fool to downplay the growing awareness of counterfeit wines - and on the contrary, I'll tell you that the problem is under-reported, rather than over-reported. Additionally, I worry that the problem is going to get far worse before it gets better. In the case of old wines that have been counterfeited recently, we have at least some hope of catching mistakes made by sloppy counterfeiters. It is hard to artificially age a label, a cork and a capsule! On the other hand, consider the fact that 2009 Lafite is already worth thousands, and it is already being counterfeited - and those counterfeits in 20 years will have old corks, old labels and old capsules, just like their authentic counterparts. As an honest guy who pays his mortgage and feeds his family in this industry, I'll tell you we are dismayed. We desperately need a reliable technology and we desperately need producers to help where they can.

But the fact is we do not have that technology yet, and we do not have the cooperation of many producers. Consider this: those who have the most information about the products they sell are unwilling to help an honest auction house protect their own consumers. While it is highly fashionable to bash the auctioneers these days, we are not all crooked, and the problem does not exist solely in the vacuum of the auction market. Speaking for myself and a few select colleagues - we try really hard to get it right, and we will never offer something where there is a preponderance of evidence suggesting a bottle is correct. As was the case here, we do our due diligence and take our investigations a good ways back before we are comfortable selling a collection. We are happy to be shown our mistakes if and when someone comes forth with conclusive information We spend a lot of time talking with colleagues about new fakes we encounter or asking for assistance when we need more information. It is extremely easy to withdraw property before an auction, and on the rare occasion a suspect bottle gets by our inspection we are happy to accept a return. You have to believe that I hold my reputation, my career and my love for wine as more valuable than the modest commission we hope to earn in the sale of this lot. Never the less, I have complete confidence in the bottle we are selling and hope this [far too lengthy] post is given your fair consideration.

Cheers,

Frank

Bravo to an auction house for giving a full, confident explanation of where they're coming from and their reasoning for believing the authenticity of a wine. Ill be the first to admit I'm incredibly cynical about big ticket auction wines (just look at my previous post, or some Chinese BDX fakes for examples), but if every house was like this I'd be much more confident. Bravo again, and hopefully the bottle is legit for everyone's sake.

[Barry Sunderland]

Hello Gentlemen,

I am Frank Martell, new to the board today and in full disclosure - I am the director of the wine department for Heritage Auctions. I am also fortunate enough to call Roy a friend, though we finally met in person fairly recently. I hope you don't mind my input but I thought it appropriate to publicy address the question of this 1720 Pather and set the record straight against the current of incorrect assumptions being made.

This bottle of 1720 Pather we are offering is consigned by a FTLOP member who is also a mutual friend to Roy and I. When I inspected the wine I noted the same inconsistencies you have brought to account and I of course inquired as to the history of this bottle. The consignor is able to provide records demonstrating that the wine was originally purchased from Mannie Berk and that he too had raised concerns about the misspelling, among other things. This is the explanation that Mannie provided to him a couple years ago:

"But from your description, your bottle of Pather has to be one of 15 bottles Henrique Borges inherited from his father in 1989--sharing equally with his five siblings. In 1989, at the time of the distribution, each bottle was given a simple handwritten Avery's-style label, which your bottle may still have. (I don't recall for sure if Henrique left the hand-written label on his bottles after they were stenciled.)

Henrique had all his bottles stenciled and recorked with plain black wax a few years later by the H.M. Borges company, while his brother Joao had his own label made, bearing a photograph of his grandfather, H.M. Borges. The other four children did nothing with their bottles; they only have the small hand-written label on them.

To your question of why the bottles were stenciled "Palther" instead of "Pather," I've always attributed it to a mistake by whoever did the stenciling at Borges. (No one working there in the late 1990s would have known anything about this wine.) All I can tell you is that the stenciling on every one of his bottles has the "L" in it.

The name "Pather" itself is shrouded in mystery. The Borges family generally says it's because it was the oldest and greatest wine H.M. Borges owned ... the "father" (or Pater) of his wines. But then, why is the "H" in it? The story was that H.M.'s sons didn't trust their brother-in-law, and they deliberately misspelled the name to catch him if he tried to steal any of the wine.

You're right that misspellings on old Madeiras are not infrequent. No less an authority than Graham Blandy sometimes spelled Terrantez with an extra "R": Terrantrez. He wrote it that way sometimes in his personal records and was probably responsible for the label in the attached photo. I have never seen anyone else spell it the same way.

I hope this helps. If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to ask."

I know auction houses are getting a bad rap right now, and deservedly so in some cases. I would be a fool to downplay the growing awareness of counterfeit wines - and on the contrary, I'll tell you that the problem is under-reported, rather than over-reported. Additionally, I worry that the problem is going to get far worse before it gets better. In the case of old wines that have been counterfeited recently, we have at least some hope of catching mistakes made by sloppy counterfeiters. It is hard to artificially age a label, a cork and a capsule! On the other hand, consider the fact that 2009 Lafite is already worth thousands, and it is already being counterfeited - and those counterfeits in 20 years will have old corks, old labels and old capsules, just like their authentic counterparts. As an honest guy who pays his mortgage and feeds his family in this industry, I'll tell you we are dismayed. We desperately need a reliable technology and we desperately need producers to help where they can.

But the fact is we do not have that technology yet, and we do not have the cooperation of many producers. Consider this: those who have the most information about the products they sell are unwilling to help an honest auction house protect their own consumers. While it is highly fashionable to bash the auctioneers these days, we are not all crooked, and the problem does not exist solely in the vacuum of the auction market. Speaking for myself and a few select colleagues - we try really hard to get it right, and we will never offer something where there is a preponderance of evidence suggesting a bottle is incorrect. As was the case here, we do our due diligence and take our investigations a good ways back before we are comfortable selling a collection. We are happy to be shown our mistakes if and when someone comes forth with conclusive information We spend a lot of time talking with colleagues about new fakes we encounter or asking for assistance when we need more information. It is extremely easy to withdraw property before an auction, and on the rare occasion a suspect bottle gets by our inspection we are happy to accept a return. You have to believe that I hold my reputation, my career and my love for wine as more valuable than the modest commission we hope to earn in the sale of this lot. Never the less, I have complete confidence in the bottle we are selling and hope this [far too lengthy] post is given your fair consideration.

Cheers,

Frank

Good stuff, Frank. Welcome!

[Roy Hersh]

And that my friends, shows two things ...

a. how quickly earlier posts drew conclusions that were at best, pure speculation turned sour story. Fact checking was not done, yet it seemed so easy to throw darts from afar at an easy target. Lesson learned, I hope! Lots of "this type of speculation" used to appear here on FTLOP in its very early days, by some participants (and friends) who have become extraordinarily learned over the years, with opinions that I now hold in high esteem.

b. although Frank is a friend and someone that I trust and send clients to when they are looking for an honest auction house to part with their stellar collectible bottles ... or seeking to purchase something great ... I was so pleased that he was able to succinctly explain exactly how/why this particular bottle (put forth by another friend, as Frank mentioned) turned out the way it did. There is no question that some other wine forums take great pleasure in bashing retailers and auction houses, sometimes rightfully so ... but occasionally without a shred of evidence, replaced instead by just a story that sounds good to a hungry mob. I have never been one to let FTLOP turn into that. There is a reason I let my blog post on SCION linger on the front page of this website for a half a year. After all the wrong speculation that went on elsewhere and especially here on our Forum, I felt that was the least I could do to present the facts provided directly by Adrian Bridge, Taylor's CEO.

Kudos to Mr. Martell, who is one of the key reasons that particular auction house has remained beyond reproach to this point in time (and hopefully for eons to come).

For transparency sake: No this is not an advertisement, as believe it or not, we only met in person back in March although emails have been exchanged for years, with mutual admiration for one another's expertise, but no currency ... liquid assets or otherwise, has ever been passed between us.

[Andreas Platt]

Frank,

thanks for showing us your point.

You know what they say "don't kill the messanger" but I still have doubts, but then again I don't have to bid on the bottle.

Reason for my doubts is that if I believed in 2 different bottling (which is for ~ 60 bottles quite high) then another existing version would make that 3 versions and that again would raise my doubts.

But I have to say that also the follwoing bottle looks weird.

http://www.finestandrarest.com/images/M ... Pather.jpg

And thanks for your time.

[Justin A]

Fantastic explanation. Thanks to Roy and Frank. Andreas, I certainly do not wish to argue about the authenticity of this bottle and absolutely respect your belief. However, perhaps since the bottles were divided among several family members, and each family member was free to do what he or she pleased with the bottles, it may be perfectly normal to expect drastic bottle variations among the same wine.

[Andreas Platt]

[quote="Justin A] Andreas, I certainly do not wish to argue about the authenticity of this bottle and absolutely respect your belief. [/quote]

Hi Justin,

let me make one thing clear: I do NOT have a belief in regards to that bottle; I just wouldn't bid on it since there are a few things that don't match (the same on the bottle from finest and rarest).

The rest of the Heritage Madeiras looks perfect and I even bid on those.

But everyone can do whatever one wants (bid or not), and I think that the sheer fact that HA felt they have to deliver an explanation shows that they mean business and care about things - GREAT JOB.

[Peter Reutter]

I followed the discussion with great interest and I will admit I had strong doubts at first. Some doubt still remains, even though Heritage Auctions did their part to explain the misspelling. And yes, the "Terrantrez" bottles really do exist, I had one myself. I will not argue against your strong explanation Frank, but I still wonder about the *perfect* wax-cover of the bottle. It looks very new to me, at least not like done in the late 1990ies. Has this bottle been recorked, and if so, by whom?
Best
Peter

[Eric Ifune]

Mannie and Patrick Grubb are the two people I would trust on this matter. I know that Mannie knows and talks directly to the Borges family.

And Frank, welcome to the forum!

[Andy Velebil]

Roy,
You can't fault people for raising the issue. As Frank himself also mentioned, the auction industry is taking some serious heat over selling fake wines. You and I have experienced a fake Port which came from a different auction house which should have been caught before being listed, as it was vintage that didn't exist.

That said, Heritage is a very respectable and honest auction house*. When it comes old rare bottles of Port or Madeira most auction houses don't have the expertise to know if it is fake or even what it may be, so I applaud Frank's fact checking before these were listed.

And lets not get everyone fired up on the Scion thing again...

*Disclaimer: I am friends with an employee there.