The possessive

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

When writing “Graham’s”, I always use the possessive. But never for “Taylor”, even though a picture in this post shows a label of “Taylor’s 1985”.

Is there a standard ‘correct form’ for which houses, in English, are written possessive?

[Al B.]

This is a really sad post. But what is even worse is that I have asked myself the very same question over time.

I've never come to an answer and I'm horribly inconsistent. Sometimes its Taylor's and sometimes its Taylors.

Is it only Taylors and Grahams or are there other houses that end in "'s"? Rozes, perhaps?

So what should the rule be?

(I can't believe that I'm posting to support this thread after also having confessed to be the world's only reconstructor of fragmented port corks.)

Alex

[Alex K.]

I'm the same as Alex, except that I do it with Warre, Warre's, Warres as well.

[Ronald Wortel]

I'm just as bad as you guys, using all kinds next to eachother. But my excuse is that English is not my first language...

But as far as I know: since we are talking about e.g. the Vintage Port produced by the house of Taylor, Fladgate and Yeatman, in short we would say Taylor's Vintage Port. The same would count for Graham's, Warre's etc. We would even have to say Rozes' Vintage Port. When talking only about the producer, it should be Taylor, Warre, etc. since there is no mention of the actual product.

But in the Dutch spelling we have recenty gotten rid of the apostrophe (is that the same word in English? I mean the ') in the possesive form, so we write Warres Vintage Port. Which means that I am excused for every error I make, simply because the different rules in different languages are too confusing for my simple mind.

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

The same would count for Graham's, Warre's etc.

But “Fonseca’s” would be offensive to the ear. So it can’t be all houses†.

† And obviously not Noval.

[Ronald Wortel]

offensive, maybe, but not wrong:



You're probably right about Quinta do Noval, although I did find an old bottle where it said: "Da Silva's Quinta do Noval".

[Al B.]

Ronnie

Great post. Made me laugh to see the label.

And the word for apostrophe is the same in English as in Dutch. We just don't have any organisation to our language so its pretty anarchic. People use the possessive if they feel like it. If they don't and they write to someone who does then the person who does looks down on the person who doesn't. The person who doesn't looks down on the person who does for being too snooty.

And most of us dont' know when to use them, where we ough'tta put them and when its has one and when it's not supposed to have one.

Its a mess. Wonder how long it would take me to learn Dutch instead?

Alex

[Alex K.]

I speak Dutch:

"For shure, dish ish gut shtuff."

You get to pick it up when you've been there a few times. Still can't summon up the bravado to drink buttermilk though.

[Ronald Wortel]

Then just what have I been doing spending six high school years learning English grammar rules!? :twisted:

Dutch is easy. It's German for people with a speaking disorder.

[Derek T.]

I always use an apostrophy except when I dont - Alex's description of the reactions of the apostrophites and the antiapostrophites is spot on, and makes me laugh

Derek

[Dave Johnson]

Ch. Latour's Claret

[Alex K.]

Then just what have I been doing spending six high school years learning English grammar rules!? :twisted:

Dutch is easy. It's German for people with a speaking disorder.

Why are you Netherlanders so rude about the Dutch? You're nearly as bad as the Hollanders for that.

BTW, I spent 5 years learning French so that I could say "Je ne comprends pas"

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

My original question (“Is there a standard ‘correct form’ for which houses, in English, are written possessive?”) was meant entirely seriously.

Though I now dread the answer (“Fonseca’s” — ouch!), I still want to know. And the answer can’t be “optional”: too much work was done coding PostScript to handle

Code: Select all

[ (Graham) /quoteright (s) ]

for it to be discarded.

[Alex K.]

No idea if there is a standard correct for for the English houses, but as far as the language is concerned it is OK to do either. By stating "a bottle Graham's" you are implying the Port as a noun. By stating "a bottle of Graham" you are leaving the Port bit to the imagination and saying that "Graham" is the noun rather than the possessive. "Grahams Port" is just wrong.

Of course "Graham's Port", could equally mean "Graham is Port", which is a touch arrogant.

[Ronald Wortel]

Why are you Netherlanders so rude about the Dutch? You're nearly as bad as the Hollanders for that.

If the Hollanders can be treated as their own sort, I will not be spoken to as Netherlander. I have my pride too. I'm a Utrechter!

Of course "Graham's Port", could equally mean "Graham is Port", which is a touch arrogant.

Not at all. As far as I know Graham only produces port, therefore the statement Graham's Port is correct. Now Port's Graham, that's another story...

[Al B.]

Julian

I think Ronnie gave you an answer that I would support as being pretty spot on.

Perhaps the truth is that it depends on what you are doing with your phrase. If you are trying to indicate that this is the Vintage Port from the 1908 vintage that was shipped by Taylor, Fladgate and Yeatman then I would have thought that the formal rules of English require you to phrase it as "Taylor's 1908 Vintage Port" or "Taylor's 1908" for short. In this phrase you are quite clearly referring to the port shipped by a particular house.

So, taking this further, the same logic can be applied to any and should be applied to all shippers. If referring to their port, use the posessive. If only referring to the house, then don't. The only time this might be confusing is when referring to a house whose name ends with the letter "s". Under these circumstances you could be quite correct in saying

"This is a bottle of Rozes 1985" and equally correct in saying "This is a bottle of Rozes' 1985".

In all other circumstances I would suggest that you can say either:

"This bottle is Taylor 1927 vintage port" (in which case you are naming the bottle) or you can say "This is a bottle of Taylor's 1927 vintage port" (in which case you are naming the contents of the bottle) but you should not use an apostrophe and "s" unless you are intending to demonstrate the possessive.

So for scripting purposes, just be consistent, and for discussion purposes I guess the rest of us will just keep muddling along with whatever we feel like at the time.

However, this thread has been useful since I have not actually given this proper specific thought before and will probably try to be consistent from now on and use the posessive whenever talking about a particular port. Or not.

Alex

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

It seems that the auction houses don’t use the possessive, except when quoting a label, or making a (rare) error.

Taylor 1927 (1 bt)
Excellent level, vintage embossed on capsule, cork slightly raised, neck label states ‘Hay & Son Ltd, Norfolk Street, Sheffield’, Taylor’s 1927, bought at Christie’s 28 June 1999 auction (lot 63)
Graham 1942 (1 bt)
Believed Finest Reserve 1942, level into neck, label almost illegible, wax capsule damaged, signs of old seepage, bought at Christie’s 28 June 1999 auction (lot 66)

In 2001 Croft itself was sold to the family who own Taylor’s and Fonseca Port by Diageo, who decided to retain the brand name Morgan. As such, no Morgan vintage Ports have been made in recent years.

…
Taylor–Vintage 1963
Bottled by Corney and Barrow. Embossed metal capsule. Slight signs of seepage. No label. Level mid-shoulder half (1)
…
Taylor’s Vintage Reserve
Bin-soiled label. Level into neck (1)

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

So perhaps “Taylor’s 1927” is the port of Taylor, that is made by or formerly belonging to Taylor. Whereas “Taylor 1927” is a 1927 port—which one, well, of course, that to which the adjective “Taylor” can be applied. So I reckon both are correct, even according to “the formal rules of English”.

But is one preferred? And, failing better authority, I think I’m going to follow the auction houses.

[Derek T.]

I know a man here who is a Professor of English - perhaps he can tell us what the correct answer is?

Derek

[Alan C.]

Derek, Al-K,

Why didn't this subject come up on Saturday Night. We might not have all stayed up so long, and we'd have then felt sooo much better the following day! Or did you start thinking of this subject Derek? (Which is why I was jabbing you with the Cue?)

Alan