For The Love Of Port

This may only interest European members.

Tonight I watched a football match on TV between FC Roma and Manchester United.

Just before half time there was a significant incidence of football violence in the area close to the fence between the opposing fans. I hate violence of any kind. In watching the situation unfold on UK TV I was somewhat bemused by the attitude of the commentators.

What I saw with my own eyes was a few hundered fans from each side charge at the barrier throwing missiles at each other. Following this the Italian Police beat up any Manchester United fan they could get close to and repelled them from the area close to the barrier. One could easily come to the view that the police over-reacted and were one-sided in their attack. However, my view is that the people who taunted one another and charged the barrier form either side are entirely to balme for all that followed. The consequences of fan violence were well publicised before the event so the outcome was unsurpirsing.

I would be interested in others views of this and particularly interested to know if similar incidents happen at sporting events around the world.

Derek

Derek

I got a text off a mate who was over there, saying the 'Ultras' (thats Roma's hooligan/faschist element) were armed with knives and meat cleavers.
It seemed a little exagerated, but all the news networks are beginning to report multiple stabbings of United fans.
I'll agree with your general thrust, but why were the Police only in the Segregated United end?
And on a footballing note...we'll do them in the second leg!

Alan

Alan,

I am not questioning who instigated the violence and am not defending the police. What amazed me about the TV coverage was that there was no questioning about why 2-300 MU fans had passed through the police lines and were beating on the perspex barrier in an attempt to reach their tormentors.

I did hear something on one station that said that the idea of an Italian thug day out is to pick a fight with the police. they show relatively little interest in the opposing fans. This explains why the police were not on the same side as the Roma fans.

Why can't these people just watch the match and ignore the idiots? Am I being niave? Were there a group of thugs from Manchester out for a fight? Who knows? I just can't believe the imbalance of the comentators!

Derek

Didn't see the match but I also abhor any kind of violence. This is the kind of mess we used to get in the Seventies and Eighties. If the Man U fans were baiting the Roma fans then they were as much or to blame for any violence. There used to be a very strong thug element in the MU away fans but that has subsided in the last twenty years.

Whoever started it, it was wrong. The commentators not reporting correctly is also wrong.

I would ask you to consider the following point.

I did hear something on one station that said that the idea of an Italian thug day out is to pick a fight with the police. they show relatively little interest in the opposing fans. This explains why the police were not on the same side as the Roma fans.

That is similar to 'Why do the Police have to chase stolen cars, when they all might crash, even into innocent bystanders!'

Both theories if carried out have a similar short term success. In the Long Term, it becomes common knowledge, emboldons the Thug/Criminal, and causes an explosion of problems, many times worse than the original.

My understanding of last nights violence was as follows.
Roma score. Their fans rush a Perspex Barrier to taunt Utd fans. Utd fans rush the same barrier and although both sets of fans cant get at each other, is wrong, and looks dreadful.
At which point my Italian cousins wade in. They dont arrest, they just attack. One Side only?
Embarrassment on all sides, and something our mob learned from in the 80's.
Hence, all seater, CCTV, Arrests, Equality of response for both sides, etc,etc.

Alan,

I am with you on the equality thing - the police should have given an equal beating to all troublemakers regardless of which side of the barrier they were on. They should also have left alone the people who were not causing trouble.

My main point is that a large number of idiot on the Man U side rushed through the police lines to the barrier in an attempt to get at the thugs on the other side. This has been largely ignored by the TV coverage. Everyone who went to that game knew the reputation of Italian supporters and Italian Police. If they chose to confront them they got what they deserved. Perhaps if the BBC would acknowledge that to be the actual cause of what followed the world could begin to confront the problem properly. As it stands, some of those who caused the trouble last night are being sympathetically interviewed by the BBC today at Manchester airport with bandaged heads - some innocent, but many not!




Derek

Derek,

And with that, I am back to agreeing with the your point.
Its no use saying why did you pick on me for doing something wrong when everyone else is doing it. You did wrong, hard luck!

Alan.
P.S. That theory also held true for the majority of your speeding stories!

But the cops who stopped me for speeding didn't have riot gear and 3 foot long truncheons in their hands

All right all you UK guys...
Football season doesn't start until July!!!

Just kidding, I have a ton of respect for that game which you (and I) call football and less and less for the mass-marketing shallow game that has become the "NFL." 8)

Having recently spent a week in Austria where all that was "on the tele" was reruns of football matches from the previous weekend, I was exposed to the European element, which was a treat. The re-broadcast of it that we get at 05:00 in the morning here in Canada is weak, at best.

Todd

First of all, many NON-Europeans watch football and love the sport, even the kind we call soccer. The highlight of my June '06 trip to Portugal was watching the World Cup over there while their team made it to the semi-finals for the first time since the great vintage of 1966. It was hard not to root for them even though some of their players were divers. But Portugal was rocking and there is NOTHING in the US that unites our country like that!

Due to the time difference, watching EU football is very tough over here, even for this individual used to staying up to insane hours while working the newsletter. In previous World Cup matches, I have always done so and had to avoid the internet so that I would not find out the score by accident before the game was shown over here.

Derek, you never told us who won the match? I am actually curious.

There was a movie here a few years ago called Hooligans. It showed the underbelly of the gang warfare that used to take place and still does around England (I know it is actually throughout Europe though). It was a fantastic movie on a topic I had only minor knowledge about as we only hear about it or see it on TV when there is a MAJOR catastrophe with rival fans killing each other or infamous stampedes etc. But this movie caught my attention and was actually very well done.

The same weekend that I met you guys in London for the Port tasting, I went to my first UK football game. It was Man City vs. W. Fulham. I went with Nicos Neocleous, FTLOP Forum contributor and very close buddy of mine. He was horrified that I wore an Oakland Raiders shirt with pirate patched-eye et al. I had no idea the police would see this as a very poor choice of attire. I was amazed when we got out at the W. Fulham Station that we were literally escorted by police out of the station and kept far from the Manchester City fans. Police on horseback roamed the main street leading to the stadium. We passed the pub section of town and it was absolutely wild with song and drunks and the energy was palpable. I was stoked, not for a fight of course, but to see how the fans acted towards one another in the stadium itself.

In the USA, our National Hockey League games can get out of hand and back in the 1970s during my teen years there were lots of fights in the stands. I lived in NYC and was an Islander fan (Long Island) while most of my friends were NY Ranger fans. I'd rather save these fine stories for sharing over Port wine.

But the worst fights and fan cruelty that I experienced were at Yankee Stadium (my version of the Vatican) circa 1976. I was 19, in the best shape of my life and had learned early how to survive the streets of NYC, while avoiding joining the gangs. Entering Yankee Stadium was always a religious experience and nobody was allowed to come into "our house" wearing another team's colors back then. At best, you'd wind up getting beer tossed on you throughout the entire game (even if you were with 20 friends). At worst, if that team happened to be winning and you were a loudmouth, the locals would make you pay, dearly.

However, nothing was as brutal to watch back then as a group of wiseguy teenagers who had driven down or taken a bus from Boston to root for their Red Sox in "the hallowed grounds" of da Bronx. Loudmouths lost teeth, while loudmouths wearing colors were treated to free ambulance rides. Thug life ran rampant in those times in that stadium. Those were the daze before there were NYC policemen in the stands as security, back when it was just "rent-a-cops" who feared for their own safety and their idea of breaking up a brawl was to watch and wait until someone or a group of fans ... was not getting up and then they'd step in. They knew better.

So hooliganism is not endemic in the EU alone. I can say that today, there are far less fights in baseball and basketball and even hockey events. The NFL is another story and if you want to see crazy fans (although we've had nothing to get excited about since 2002) you need to go to an Oakland Raiders game that means something. Makes the Yankees fans seem like a bunch of grandmothers playing tiddly winks.

Sit near the infamous end-zone section called, "The Black Hole" and nothing is sacred and nobody safe. These fans are so crazy that they'll start a fight with their own fans because instead of wearing the black Raiders gear, they are in silver which they view as "weak." It must be seen (once) to be believed. The closest to a "near death" experience I have ever had was trying to leave that stadium after a brutal loss to our arch rival Denver Broncos years ago in a playoff game. I don't scare easily but that was the craziest crowd I have ever been unfortunately mixed up in. Raiders fans are half Hell's Angel's motorcycle lunatics mixed in with a solid dose of ex-prison inmates. Note: Leave the wife and kids at home, especially if you have a daughter.

On Dereks behalf...

Each Country has its League. Thats straight forward.
All the Nations Champions go, the following season, into The Europe wide Champions League. (Big Countries, like England,Spain and Italy also let the 2nd,3rd and 4th place teams in)
This Champions League starts of as mini-leagues, like your NFL Divisions, but eventually they work out a last 16 teams who then play knock out.
We're now at the last 8(Quarter-Finals). Up to the final these knock out games are two-legged affairs, home and away.
If the scores are level after both legs, away goals count double, (For example its is better to lose 3-2 away from home and then win 2-1 at home)

So after putting it in context.

Quarter Final 1st leg. AS Roma 2 - 1 Manchester United.

Which means, all to play for on Tuesday, when the 2nd leg is at Manchester. Cant wait. Come on the Red Devils! (I hope my Avatar will be shining bright on Wednesday!)

Alan

PS. On the violence front. Every country has had or does have Sporting related violence. What you describe is similar to what we had in the 70's and 80's. For example, the Australians bizarely had problems with Cricket,etc. Our nation was shamed by how bad things got. Many lives were lost in disasters and we were banned from European Football Competitions. It was a Social problem, more than a Sporting one, and all the Politicians and Authorities devised ways to eradicate it. We pinched All Seater Stadiums from the NFL, in new High Tech Stadia, used the emerging CCTV as a weapon, and developed Law Enforcement Strategies, that had equality, justice and consequences, inter-twined through them.
To watch this particular match and its violence unfold, was like going back in time, and reminding us of an unpleasant family secret, we had choosen to forget.

GET IN!!!!

Manchester United 7(Seven) - 1 AC Roma

Aggregate 8-3.

United march on to the Semi-finals.

Alan obviously didn't have much time to explain this tonight so I will do my best to enlighted those interested across the blond and elsewhere.

Tonight I watched the best team performance I have witnessed for many years. Man United have been under pressure recently due to some dodgy results and self inflicted errors. Add to this the pressure associated with last weeks horrendous violence involving their fans in Rome during the first leg and at 20:00 tonight you will appreciate that there were 11 young men with a great deal to prove standing on the Old Trafford pitch awaiing kick-off.

What followed was truely remarkable. Roma are no mugs. Currently sitting in 2nd place in the Italian (World Champions) league and having put on a great controlled display at their home ground against Man U 6 days earlier. United simply ripped then apart. There were 11 minutes of uncertainty before the first goal but then within another 8 minutes United were 3 goals up and home and dry. They went on to score another 4 goals, conceding 1 late in the game when the result was assured.

I will say here and now that I have no particular affiliation to Man U but I do enjoy watching them play when they are at their best. This is the best I have seen them play since the night they beat Bayern Munich in the final by scoring 2 goals in the last 5 minutes to overturn a 1 goal defecit.

One of the most pleasing things about this game was the obvious respect and friendship that exists between Wayne Rooney and Christiano Ronaldo. Anyone who witnessed the media frenzie that followed the England v Portugal match in the 2006 World Cup will remember the hype that existed at that time claiming that they could never play in the same team again. This was an exellent example of why you should never believe what you hear or read in the press.

Alan, I hope I did your boys justice here - what a match

Derek

PS: Alan C was last seen heading into the kitchen with a bottle of Offley 1963, a box of very large cigars and huge grin on his face 8)

Alan,

Congrats on the Man U win. I'll be catching the replay on Saturday morning as they don't broadcast live here unless you have PPV (Pay Per View).

It is nice to see (or hear of) them finally come out and play as strong as they are reputed to be. I have watched an awful lot of 1-0 or 2-1 matches over the past two months where Man U get very lucky in the last 10 minutes or Injury time. Sounds like they did it up properly this time! :)

Derek Turnbull wrote: This is the best I have seen them play since the night they beat Bayern Munich in the final by scoring 2 goals in the last 5 minutes to overturn a 1 goal defecit.

Derek, Funny, I am positive this was one of the games that I watched that I am referring to. Yes, they played well that final five, but they also caught a lucky break or two, IIFC, Bayern almost scored to go up 2-0 shortly before the two goal onslaught, whcih likely would have put the game out of reach with 6 mins remaining in the match.

Todd

Ah jeez, next Derek will swear that Rooney did not intentionally stomp then grind his cleats in the groin of the opposing player vs. Portugal and it was Ronaldo's fault for inciting the referee by bringing attention to the play. Give me a break, I've watched that play 30 times now and Rooney is a hot head, albeit a talented one and deserved the red card.

Roy,

I agree - Rooney is an arse - he stomped on Ronaldo's nuts and got sent off. My point has nothing to do with that. The point I made was that the press tried to have Ronaldo hounded out of Man U claiming that he and Rooney were sworn enemies and could never play football again. What has transpired is somewhat different.

Todd,

I agree, Man U did not play well for most of the final 5(?) years ago and my point was solely linked to the fact that the team pulled together and dragged a fabulous result from the face of defeat by giving 110% right up to the end.

Derek

This thread is on football violence not how wonderful Man U were. So, there was violence outside, twenty arrests, two thirds of them Mancs, involved in intimidation of Roma fans and affray - not a nice sight.

KillerB,

Agreed.

However, as the originator of the thread I reserve the right to use it for any topic, with the obvious exception of savoury spread related discussion.

Derek

KillerB wrote:This thread is on football violence not how wonderful Man U were. So, there was violence outside, twenty arrests, two thirds of them Mancs, involved in intimidation of Roma fans and affray - not a nice sight.

So, it's obvious that I have insulted you as you are not a Man U fan. Which team does KillerB cheer for? (I may have heard of them too!) You'll have to forgive me KillerB... as I stated earlier in the thread - our sports channels only seem to broadcast games that involve a select number of teams - ManU being the most 'popular' - likely due to that is the one that most Canadians KNOW... Maybe not right but that's the way it is....

Todd - can't find an insult anywhere, so I didn't take one. I have now of course, I just don't know what it is yet.

I support the club whose corner flag I could see form my bedroom window as a teenager - Coventry City. It is currently a Championship club but we will return to terrorise the bottom three in the Premiership in good time. Expect a return to form of escaping relegation on the last day through some astonishingly unpredictable set of circumstances.