Fill Levels

[Robert O.]

Hi,

I understand that as a port gets older, its fill level will get lower due to evaporation through the cork. However, at what level should I be concerned. For instance, if a 1970 VP has a fill level about a cm below the neck, is this acceptable and to be expected or is this low?

Is there a general guideline for this?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Bob

[Derek T.]

Bob,

In my experience people start to get concerned when the level starts to reach the base of the neck. Anything below this will nomally have a significant impact on the price of the bottle. What you describe would concren me and probably stop me buying the bottle unless it was significantly discounted.

Derek

[Robert O.]

The bottle I am looking at are a pretty good bargain. BUT, will it taste different? Or am I just getting less product?

[Alan C.]

Bob,

There is no hard and fast answer. Your playing the percentage game. As the level decreases, the chance of a problem increases. Which is why Derek makes the good point, If your paying top dollar, you want to see it in prime condition, with a good storage history,etc.
If you take a chance with leakage, low levels, no provanance,etc, you may still get top quality, but you may not. Buyer Beware.

Alan

[Derek T.]

Bob,

The main determining factor here would be the reason for the low level. If the cork has failed and seapage has occured then the wine will deteriorate fairly rapidly. I would not buy a leaker unless it was offered at 50% or less of the normal price.

If the low level has been caused by absorbtion of wine into the cork or very slow evaporation then the wine is less likely to be flawed. However, it may well be more evolved than a bottle with a high level as it will have had more exposure to air.

Derek

[Al B.]

Bob,

If you are a partner of FTLOP, I suggest that you start a thread there where you give the details of price and condition and we can then comment as to whether we would buy it or not.

I am always prepared to by a bottle with low fill and would not necessarily look for as large a discount as Derek. I have had a few bottles with low fills and have probably averaged around 30% disappointment rather than Derek's 50%.

Yes, the wine will taste different from a bottle with a high fill level - but the low fill wines that I have had have still been very enjoyable.

Alex

[Derek T.]

Bob,

If you are a partner of FTLOP, I suggest that you start a thread there where you give the details of price and condition and we can then comment as to whether we would buy it or not.

Alex, why does this need to go into the Partner area of the Forum?

Derek

[Robert O.]

Thanks for the advice, folks. It is unclear why the fill level is low. I guess that lack of information should concern me.

No, I am not a partner but if my port obession continues (and I suspect it will), I am sure I will sign up at some point. Gotta pace myself in terms of expenditures on port; don't want my wife to see the credit card bill!

[Al B.]

I was only suggesting the partner area would be a useful place to take the specifics of Bob's opportunity as there are fewer lurkers there. Bob may have felt a little more comfortable in disclosing the price and location where the wines were being offered.

Nothing more than that!

Alex

[Alan C.]

I bet you fly 1st Class and have Toilet Roll Covers as well!

[Al B.]

You might be closer than you think, but I won't comment on which one is the more accurate!



Alex

[Robert O.]

I was bit concerened about that, Alex. There is a private area for peoplemin the partners program?

[Alan C.]

Bob,

Yes. I'm not a Member yet, but it sounds interesting. Apparently you can have lengthy conversations with Lord Lucan, Shergar, Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster. :)

Alan.

[Tom Archer]

Back on topic...

If a 1927 bottle is 1cm below neck, I would mark it's value down by about 15%. If a 1970 bottle is 1cm below neck, I would mark it's value down by about 35%.

For 1970 this is too low, and indicates either poor storage, or a seepage problem.

However, the chances of the contents being adversely affected are not that high - if it lost level because it was badly cellared, it may have a 'baked' character, but will still be drinkable (probably!) If it lost level because the cork has started to fail, then it will probably be perfectly OK.

In general, the 1970 wines should have base of neck levels - or better.

Some Wine Society bottlings from this era have low levels but seem otherwise sound - they may have been modestly filled at the outset.

If I bought that bottle, I would put it out of it's misery fairly soon!

Tom

[dave leach]

tom,
how did you arrive at 15% and 35%? do you use some formula or is it a "feel" thing?

dave

[Robert O.]

Thanks, Tom. That was very helpful. Since I am new to this, I think I'd prefer to try the best examples of each VP I can, even if it costs me more. As I learn more, I think I will be willing to take more chances.

Bob

[Todd Pettinger]

It is a good post and topic Bob - I actually learned quite a bit from it. I am checking my bottles of new stuff PRIOR to purchasing now (the VPs anyway that I hope to make last 40-60 years!) If it is to be expected that the levels may drop a tad under ideal conditions, I want to make sure that I am getting a full meal deal to begin with.

I hardly think I will ever consider selling any of my (rapidly growing!! ) collection but it is handy to know this information if I am ever faced with purchasing an older bottle/case.

Todd

[Roy Hersh]

Code: Select all

if I am ever faced with purchasing an older bottle/case. 

Forget the "IF" ... it is just a matter of WHEN.

[Todd Pettinger]

Code: Select all

if I am ever faced with purchasing an older bottle/case. 

Forget the "IF" ... it is just a matter of WHEN.

This is so very true. 11 bottles of VP purchased just the other day (just went onto the discount shelf) - CLOSE to a full case-worth!

I even managed to snaffle a matching Fonseca Guimaraens 2001 VP OWC. I have 9 of the 12 bottles that belonged to the box. Once I return from maxxing out my credit card in California, I will see about the missing 3 bottles!

Todd

[Tom Archer]

how did you arrive at 15% and 35%? do you use some formula or is it a "feel" thing

When I buy wine, I use the computer to set my bids - every bottle gets a condition rating - immaculate ex cellars stock getting 100%, but everything else earning a de-merit, including de-merits for lack of information in the sale catalogue...

Ullage levels are not linear as a de-merit - it is common for sound, well cellared old bottles to have lost a little fluid over the years, and not a massive issue. With a younger bottle it is much more of a cause for concern.

A level of 1cm below neck rates as a top shoulder (ts) level.

This is the Excel vb code:

Public u as Variant 'Multiplication factor for ullage
Public a as Integer 'Age of bottle

Sub Ullage_ts
If a > 77 Then u = 0.85 :Exit Sub
u = 0.475 + ((a-2)/200)
End Sub

The calculation works from the bottling date, all bottles over 77 years old get a factor of 0.85

If a 2000 vintage bottle had that level, it would be halved in value.

Tom