Questions about sediment

This section is for those who have basics questions about, or are new to, Port. There are no "dumb" questions here - just those wanting to learn more!

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Todd Pettinger
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Questions about sediment

Post by Todd Pettinger »

In a TN posted just a few minutes ago, where I revisited the 2000 Quinta do Noval LBV, which I loved so much the first time around, a question popped into my head.

Perhaps you guys with a bit of experience with the older VPs can answer this for me...
Does a Vintage Port throw more sediment the longer it is in bottle?

This leads to a second question:
Does the amount of sediment affect the development of a port over time? (i.e. More sediment = more potential for development, etc?)

I ask because the amount of sediment/crust in my bottle of the Noval LBV was disappointing, just a small amount. If the wine does not throw more sediment as it evolves, OR if the amount of development a wine may experience is limited by how much sediment is in the bottle, then it stands to reason that the LBV that I had with very little crust/sediment in the bottle may not develop a whole lot even if I left it for numerous years.

Ok, this leads to a 3rd logical question:
Does a VP contain a lot more sediment than an LBV? (It seems to from my own experiences, but I don't have ANY experience with aged LBVs and hardly any with older VPs, so I'm guessing here.) If so, is it logical to assume that this is why VPs are typically so much more complex and complete? More sediment = more character?

Okay, I think I need to tip a few more glasses of this stuff :winepour: and stop asking questions.

Looking forward to a few response from the folks that have experience or better knowledge than I about all things related to sediment. :cool:

Todd
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Alex K.
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Post by Alex K. »

Does it throw more sediment over time - yes. It's also a reason why the Port will be lighter as it gets older.

Does the amount at the beginning affect the ageability - eww, not sure. Filtering will remove the lumps and the sediment at the beginning. However, even a filtered wine can throw sediment if you leave it long enough. I've not studied why or how it evolves the way that it does in a bottle, so I will pass on this one.
I'm telling you - Port is from Portugal.
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

Todd,

The answer to your first question is a definate yes, but not all ports will throw sediment at the same rate. I don't understand the science of it all but in my experience some of the great wines, such as Fonseca 63/66 etc, have surprisingly little sediment and are still very dark and youthful in appearance. Perhaps wines that can hold themselves together have more ageing potential than those who drop the solids relatively quickly.

I would expect an LBV to have less sediment than a VP as it spends longer in wood and will leave more solids behind before bottling than a VP would.

Derek
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Andy Velebil
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Post by Andy Velebil »

Filtering will remove the lumps and the sediment at the beginning
This is all the filtering a VP gets..just enough to get the big stuff out. So it leaves a lot to develope and throw in bottle.

Image
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Alex K.
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Post by Alex K. »

Andy V. wrote:
Filtering will remove the lumps and the sediment at the beginning
This is all the filtering a VP gets..just enough to get the big stuff out. So it leaves a lot to develope and throw in bottle.
I meant for LBV but I like the picture nonetheless.
I'm telling you - Port is from Portugal.
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

....and I was referring to Unfiltered/Traditional/Bottle matured LBV.

In respect of filtered LBV the answer is that it should not have any sediment unless you have kept it for a lot longer than was intended.

Derek
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Alex K.
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Post by Alex K. »

Yep - I said that too.

I feel like I'm being quoted by the tabloids sometimes. I said this:

"However, even a filtered wine can throw sediment if you leave it long enough"

and some people are obviously reading this:

"filtered wine always throws sediment"

I said this:

"Filtering will remove the lumps and the sediment at the beginning"

and some people are reading this:

"Vintage Port is filtered"

Read this:

"I sometimes like a glass of Port"

The red tops amongst you will now reinterpret this as:

"Shock: KillerB hates Port most of the time"

How about this:

"I prefer Fonseca to Taylor"

becomes

"Taylor's Port is rubbish"
I'm telling you - Port is from Portugal.
Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

What KillerB??? :shock: :shock: You don't like Port at all??? You prefer the Aussie stuff??? ;) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Now all I need to do is get a pic of you with a flute of champagne and I can post it all over the forum with a caption "The only port KillerB says is worthy of drinking is white port mixed with Sprite to drown out the taste." :D


Thanks for all the responses everyone. That is a great picture Andy. If I were there, I likely would have redirected the hose into my mouth :cool:

Todd
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Andy Velebil
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Post by Andy Velebil »

Derek Turnbull wrote:....and I was referring to Unfiltered/Traditional/Bottle matured LBV.

In respect of filtered LBV the answer is that it should not have any sediment unless you have kept it for a lot longer than was intended.

Derek
I recently had a Croft 1983 LBV (Filtered) that had NO sediment at all. I was surprised, as I figured it would have at least some sediment after 20 years in bottle.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

KillerB wrote:Yep - I said that too.

I feel like I'm being quoted by the tabloids sometimes. I said this:

"However, even a filtered wine can throw sediment if you leave it long enough"

and some people are obviously reading this:

"filtered wine always throws sediment"

I said this:

"Filtering will remove the lumps and the sediment at the beginning"

and some people are reading this:

"Vintage Port is filtered"

Read this:

"I sometimes like a glass of Port"

The red tops amongst you will now reinterpret this as:

"Shock: KillerB hates Port most of the time"

How about this:

"I prefer Fonseca to Taylor"

becomes

"Taylor's Port is rubbish"
Alex,

I'm glad to hear you agree with me on the sediment thing - but I know you like port and I also know you like Taylor's so stop trying to fool us that you don't :lol: :lol:

Derek
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Al B.
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Post by Al B. »

Todd

I reckon that you also deserve a nerdy reply to your original questions, so here goes.

All port is clear and contains no sediment when it is bottled. This is because even vintage port is stored in barrels for 2-3 years before being bottled and is racked before going into glass. The effect of this storing and racking is that all the solids are left behind and only the crystal clear liquid is bottled.

An illustration of this is that if you pull the cork on a bottle of very young VP, you are unlikely to find any significant sediment in the bottle.

However, certain components of wine - principally the tannins and the red-colouration compounds (I think these are the anthocyanins) react over time with other compenents of the wine in the presence of the limited amount of oxygen in the wine and bottle to form an insoluble solid. This solid settles to the bottom of the bottle and, over time, builds up into a layer of sediment. The longer the wine is left in the bottle, the more of these compunds will form into solids until there are none left and no further sediment is formed. While I would suggest that it is not true to say the amount of sediment affects the development of a port over time I think that it could be true to say that the amount of sediment indicates how much the flavour profile of the wine has changed with its development since being bottled.

In general, VP does throw more sediment that other types of port but that is because - in general - VP is made with blends of wine that contain more tannins and more anthocyanins than other types of port. Equally, some types of port that start life with extended exposure to controlled amounts of oxygen (like LBVs do) will throw some of their sediment in the barrel, before being bottled. To carry out a true comparison you would have to compare the amount of sediment in a bottle of 1963 Taylor VP with the amount of sediment inside a barrel of 1963 Taylors Colheita (no - they don't make one, this was just an illustrative example).


Hopefully Jay or Tom can step in with the additional knowledge and correct any and all of the mistakes that I will have included in my attemted reply above.

Thanks,
Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Thanks Alex,

You were right - I was looking for some nerdy... that suits the bill. It also made sense, in a way that I sometimes cannot make sense of my "computer geek stuff" to my wife, or friends... so bravo! :D

Todd
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Tom Archer
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Post by Tom Archer »

Don't think you're far of the mark Alex, except I don't believe that oxidation is needed for sediment to form - I think it will form regardless.

Tom
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

Andy V. wrote: I recently had a Croft 1983 LBV (Filtered) that had NO sediment at all. I was surprised, as I figured it would have at least some sediment after 20 years in bottle.
I've been drinking a Taylor's LBV 1985 Magnum this week that also had absolutely no sediment whatsoever - those Fladgate guys must have very good filters :wink:

Derek
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John Danza
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Post by John Danza »

Alex hit the nail on the head. The tannins reacting with the color compounds is a chemical reaction over time, and I don't think requires oxygen to occur. That chemical reaction does create the sediment. It's essentially the wine's color turning solid.

John
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Post by Moses Botbol »

Derek T. wrote:
Andy V. wrote: I recently had a Croft 1983 LBV (Filtered) that had NO sediment at all. I was surprised, as I figured it would have at least some sediment after 20 years in bottle.
I've been drinking a Taylor's LBV 1985 Magnum this week that also had absolutely no sediment whatsoever - those Fladgate guys must have very good filters :wink:

Derek
Wow. Never seen an LBV that old or LBV magnum before. Does Taylor filter their LBV's? How was it?
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Andy Velebil
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Post by Andy Velebil »

I've lost my TN on it, but it was right at the apex of turning tawny. The nose reminded me a lot of a '63 Fonseca (much to my surprise)...but do't worry, the palate was nothing like it :P I enjoyed it, although not a blockbuster, it still had some aged fruit and just an ever so slight touch of tannins. The finish was not long, but not clipped either. A bottle that I've drink again without hesitation. It won't get any better, as a matter of fact, it is just barily starting its downhill slide toward a tawny, as I caught this one at its peak or very very slighty over the peak. Its not often we here in the States see old filtered (or traditional for that matter) LBV's floating around, so I'm glad I got to try one. And yes, they must have a very good filter :wink:
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Tom Archer
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Post by Tom Archer »

The production of sediment seems to be highly unpredictable - the only observation I can make that has any consistency, is that the best fully mature VP's usually decant cleanly off, whereas the weaker offerings tend to run cloudy as you finish decanting.

The same cannot be said of younger wines, - and there are exceptions to the rule...

Tom
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

Moses Botbol wrote: Wow. Never seen an LBV that old or LBV magnum before. Does Taylor filter their LBV's? How was it?
Moses,

Yes, Taylor filter all of their LBV's. I have had 2 magnums in the past 12 months, one from 1982 and this one from 1985. I did not record a TN on the 82 but remember it as drinkable and it had thrown a significant crust. My TN on the 85 is here

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Tom Archer
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Post by Tom Archer »

and this one from 1985
Didn't think that bottle would last long - and now you've got a second cork box :D

Tom
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