For The Love Of Port

As you may know, the oak barrels used in the production of Port, especially Vintage Port is pretty much neutral having been used for many years and leeching out the innate flavors and most of the wood tannins that originally were given off when the casks were new.

As in the production of most of the best red wines of the world that use brand new or 2nd/3rd vintage oak, would there be more complexity or seasoning with a slightly different oak regimen? Or do you feel that the best way to make Port and again, especially VP, is to minimize the impact of the oak on the purity of the fruit expression?

Not sure, but I would guess no. For Port and Madeira. These are fruit forward wines and I would think obtrusive oak would obsure the fruit. The same thing occurs with riesling. I've had newish oak aged riesling and I think it detracts.

Roy ,
I'll start with your last statement . Would economics factor in the equation ? ( price of barrels ) .
To a certain degree probably .
Since certain French oak have more subtle aromas , I would venture a guess that they would have less of an impact on VP . (BTW do any Port producers use American oak ? )
As far as a different oak regiment , that , I think would depend on the type of oak used .Would I be out in left field in saying that If U.S. oak were used in storing VP , the oak would impart more tannins than French oak .
Anyway , with my limited knowledge , that's my view

Luc

Of course not. I like VP because of the fruit purity it has. Secondly, VP is aged in larget VAT of 5000+ litters while oak barrels are mainly between 400-600 litters, this would have much impact on the oxydation process too. I'm not sure either if one producer has the knowledge to bring that new components in its vinification process. New wood adds flavor, acidity, tannins to the wine aged in it, why risk experimenting with your best grapes for a few years/decades before doing something good.

Are you asking this because you think a producer will go that way or is experimenting it Roy?

This would certainly be an interesting experiment - to detemine how much of an impact, if any, newer oak would have on the palate of a VP. Although:

1. As Frederick rightfully points out, why would you waste good grapes on learning about this? It sounds like an experiment for a very small portion fo grapes, or for an established producer with an excess of grapes one year to attempt to produce a "new, third" label??

2. As has been mentioned elsewhere on the topic of oak, the amount of toasting of the oak has a profound affect on any flavours imparted to the wine. So not just whether the oak is new or old, but also whether it is a dark toast, a very light toast, or somewhere in between would result in a range of flavours. It also leads to point...

3. The type of oak may not be as important (whether French or American or other) as how the staves are produced. In my readings, I discovered a site where this was tested. A bunch of American Oak was sent to some traditional coopers in France. They used the oak to make barrels the same way as they do with the French Oak. Some French Oak wood was then transported to the US and the same experiement was reproduced. Of course, from a purely scientific perspective, there are numerous flaws in the "experiment" such as storage conditions on ships may not have been controlled/stored exactly the same, the weather may have been different, etc.

Regardless of imperfect scientific controls, the long and the short of it was this:

The barrels were all sent to the same winery and a single batch of wine was allowed to age in all the barrels (I am not sure of the total number, but know that there was more than one barrel of each type of wood produced by each cooper.)

The wine produced in the American-made barrels were similar, no matter whether from French or American Oak.
The wine produced in the French-made barrels were similar, no matter whether from French or American oak as well.
Both wines were different from each other (American-produced barrels vs French-produced barrels.)

I believe in the end it was determined that this was due to the way the staves were made. The French coopers split the wood using traditional methods whereas the American coopers used tools to cut the wood. They explained that this likely affected the molecular structure of the wood, by cutting cross-grain on some of the staves, and this allowed different levels of penetration into/extraction from the wood by the wine.

Whew... I HAVE to see if I can find that article again. It was a very lengthy, but fascinated read. I was doing a bit of research as I wanted to take a stab at producing my own tawny from some unfiltered LBVs and allowing them to sit in a barrel for 10-20 years.

Todd

Roy,

I seem to remember us visiting a Quinta where the store room was filled to the rafters with brand new French oak casks. I even remember discussing the price of the casks with the owner.

I may be wrong, but were some of these not filled with young port?

Derek

Derek,

Mention the name of the place so I can have a clue as to which Quinta you are referencing, before I attempt to respond. Until then, I will stand by my statement, as new French oak is not something I ever remember seeing utilized for VP, and I was spotlighting VP.

Derek T. wrote: I seem to remember us visiting a Quinta where the store room was filled to the rafters with brand new French oak casks.

It could have been Crasto or Vale Dona Maria. But they make a lot of dry reds. That's what I believe all that French oak we saw was for. At Vale Dona Maria Cristiano drew the port sample from stainless steel tanks.

-Dave-

David,

Nah, I don't think Derek was alluding to either Crasto or QdV Dona Maria, as neither uses new French oak for anything but their table wines. Occasionally, VP sits in stainless for freshness after the lagar, while very young and prior to going into well-used, neutral oak pipes.

I am sure Derek will be happy to share the name, to make his point.

Roy,

It was Dona Maria I was thinking off, and happy to accept that they were not full of VP if others remember more clearly - I'm sure you will agree that remembering details after a day in the Douro isn't easy

Derek

I guess basically , what It boils down to is this : my VP consumption cannot permit me to differentiate between old oak or new oak . . .
All I know is , If after decanting VP , the taste is great , then I'm happy

tanker wrote:All I know is , If after decanting VP , the taste is great , then I'm happy

I concur - a solid policy Luc... whether old or new!

Todd

Never had a solid policy before .
It's kinda neat

Derek T. wrote:Roy,

It was Dona Maria I was thinking off, and happy to accept that they were not full of VP if others remember more clearly - I'm sure you will agree that remembering details after a day in the Douro isn't easy

Derek

I believe that was only for their dry wines. I don't recall any Port being in new oak barrels.

I am completely with Frederick on this one. A port and douro wine producer once told me that port and the vanilla flavour that new oak gives are not a favourable marriage. I believe him.

Roy Hersh wrote: As in the production of most of the best red wines of the world that use brand new or 2nd/3rd vintage oak, would there be more complexity or seasoning with a slightly different oak regimen? Or do you feel that the best way to make Port and again, especially VP, is to minimize the impact of the oak on the purity of the fruit expression?

I'm not a wine maker, so here is my uneducated response. Yes, using new barrels may add some seasoning, but it would also change VP as we know it, and not for the better IMO. I think using new barrels to tweek a VP would cover some of those subtle nuances and terroir that makes a VP so different from other dry wines and ruin an essentially unadultrated product.

Besides that, what would happen 30+ years down the road when the fruit starts to fade and all that oak flavoring comes to the front :help:

Simplistic as my sound policy is , I'm sticking to It . There !!!

I'm not quite sure that Port with strong vanilla undertones would be all that appealing. Sure new oak has its place, but I don't think that place is in the production of Port. Port has a very unique flavor profile and I don't see new oak enhancing that profile, in fact it would probably detract from the fruit/nutty characteristics (VP/Tawny) fround in most port. Just my 2 centavos....

When you have a famous top grade VP Port, Say Fonseca, how do they clean the old barrels???
If they are ruthless and steam clean and blast, I dont think the difference between new and old would be huge. If they just swill it down and then add the new juice, what could be a better start in life. The gentle fragrance of a previous top quality Port to kick start it in life.
I know which one I'd like to test.

Alan

What seems to be very clear here is that no one has tried VP from a new oak cask - maybe we should reserve judgement until we get the chance

As an aside - what do the port producers do to season those huge oak tonnel's before using them for VP? I seen one being built at Croft, from new wood. How many years would they have to fill it with junk juice to get rid of the excess oak flavour?

Derek