Dow 1977 and generalized discussion of TN impressions

[Roy Hersh]

Derek prepared a fine TN in the tasting note section and it was worthy of discussion:

I would say that from the showing of this bottle the Dow 1977 is in the zone for drinking now and I find it difficult to see any reason why it would improve further.

Derek wisely included the phrase, "from the showing of this bottle." Often times, people who have just tasted a bottle of Port will discuss/argue that their impression from the bottle they just tried is the way the wine typically shows.

I think that Derek chose his words wisely here, showing his previous experience with 1977 Dow. Typically, it is young and vibrant and will age very well for a few decades. But Derek was describing his experience with this particular bottle. Herein lies the benefit of multiple tastings of the same VP.

Although I am only assuming that Derek has had the '77 Dow on several occasions (I am sure he'll be by to let us know the reality of this assumption) the best thing we can all see from his example is that you can not make a judgement about a producer or vintage or even the combination thereof, solely based on one bottle ... even if it is tasted at the source.

Does that mean that TNs are meaningless? Heck no, but they are a snap shot view (longer if tasted and described over a longer period of time) and not necessarily representative of other bottles of the same Vintage/Producer. Another example was Alex B.'s recent commentary on my 1966 Fonseca from a flawed bottle (used by Vinfolio) compared to my other TNs on the same wine from pristine bottles.

Your thoughts?

[Derek T.]

Roy,

I have tasted Dow's 1977 three times. Both of the others were from the same batch as the one I opened this weekend. The difference between then and now is that I opened them, left them in the decanter for the required 2 hours and then drank them. I found them very hot and, to be honest, was not impressed. I now know better and the way this bottle showed at 21 hours I can see what all the fuss is about with this particular wine.

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

Derek and Roy,
This brings up a good point that has been mentioned here a few times in the past, but worth bringing back up.

Seems a lot of wine drinkers have a hard time with decanting a Port (especially an older one) for more than a few hours. I'm guessing here, and hopefully someone can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think comes from the fact that most older dry wines would be DOA with 8-12+ hours in a decanter. But Derek's comparision of the three bottles he's had is a good case in point about how a longer decant can totally alter the drinking pleasure.

[Andy Velebil]

Derek,
How was the Quarles Harris 1977, jsut curious to see how it compared the one I had earlier this year.

[Andy Velebil]

Derek,
Totally agree with you assesment of the 1980 Warre. It is a sleeper of the vintage, and really struts its stuff after 24+ hours in a decanter. I've got a few more and it will be fun to see how they evolve over the next decade or so. Yes, I feel it could easliy last that long (from a well stored bottle anyways)

[Derek T.]

Derek,
How was the Quarles Harris 1977, jsut curious to see how it compared the one I had earlier this year.

Andy,

In case you missed it, here is my note on the QH77

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

Sorry, saw it after I posted it...I did edit it with a link though

[Alan C.]

I thought the Dows 77 was a top quality VP in its prime. To think you could only have had that type of drink when it was dwarfed by the heat of the Brandy, and never get to the 'proper' taste is quite tragic.

[David Spriggs]

My 1977 Dow's are just entering their period of drinkability. If anything, they are still a bit young. If the tannins that are left in them don't resolve, then that will be a shame, but they seem on track to do so. The Port is hugely impressive to me. I love the current balance between fruit and structure and neither shows any signs of fading soon. If you want your port super smooth and fully resolved, then this isn't there yet. Bottles open for weeks show best in the second through fourth days , and definitely need to be decanted for a day. But even after a couple weeks the port is delicious. I have had no problems with excessive alcohol. Anyway, those are what mine are like. The vast majority were bought out of bond from Elliston and Southwick Court Fine Wines (Piers Methuen & George Rhys), but my USA imported versions are essentially identical.


I've had 5 bottles in the last year. Yes.. I like this a lot!
-Dave-

[Roy Hersh]

David,

I am in agreement with you that these are still not anywhere near their prime. They are young, dark as can be in terms of color and the extraction was enormous when younger too. I've owned most of mine since 1988 (almost 20 years now) and paid $19 the first time I bought them and I think when I grabbed a second case they were all the way up to $34 circa 1995. I have enjoyed watching this and the 1970 evolve over a couple of decades. I love both.

The 1977 as you mentioned, has a very promising future ahead of it and still needs nearly a decade in my opinion before they'll be hitting full stride. I will be drinking maybe 2-3 more prior to that and then I'll savor the rest sparingly every two to three years or so, for the rest of my life. What I don't drink will become the property of my daughter. My wife would just sell them, but my daughter will understand their value.

The Dow '77 proffers the kind of beauty that will easily last between 50-60 years of age and possibly longer before it starts to show its tertiary characteristics. I have many tasting notes from when these were fairly young, but I remember them well at that stage.

One thing I find does not work for me, although I know that many savvy Port lovers here on the Forum are fans of decanting their wines for a few days. To me, when a wine is left in the decanter 1-2-3 days until it is luxuriously smooth on the palate, fully integrated, with totally tamed tannins and zero alcohol protruding ... MANY people seem to believe that this is VP at its best. I have witnessed this more times than I can begin to recount. I keep my mouth shut and let everyone enjoy what turns them on about Port.

I am going to quote someone whose Port opinion I trust greatly: "Extended decanting of Port and especially VP is a good thing. But going too far, say 24 hours of decanting time, in my opinion, serves only to strip the Port of its true beauty while dumbing down the tannins and negating too much of the structural components of the wine. Some adhere to that practice for the sake of having something softer and (arguably) better in terms of aromatic and flavor profiles. I prefer to allow the freshness and natural components of a Port to be enhanced by decanting, not to alter its entire character." I couldn't have said it better myself.

For my own Port drinking pleasure, there has to be a happy medium between the pop, decant and pour that many of us have witnessed in the mother land ... as the de rigueur mode for the shippers & producers who are serving VPs to their guests ... and decanting for multiple days. But this of course, is only one man's opinion. I will continue on my merry way of decanting bottles and suggest that for everyone else, 'to each their own.'

[Ronald Wortel]

To come back to your original question: I always assume that a TN is a representation of a single bottle experience, unless otherwise noted. When I try to find information about a particular bottle I always look for as many TN's as possible from as many sources as possible. This gives me the best idea on how the port can be. That's why I like Michael Broadbent's Vintage Wine so much: he always gives a brief history on his tasting experiences with a particular wine. Very helpful.

[Alan C.]

Maybe this shouldn't be developed on this Thread....But anyway,

Roy,

As you know we have different opinions on drinking Young Port, and to be fair, I just cant get your argument. I'll accept its my closed mind, but I just dont get it. However, on the subject of decanting times, when I read

I am going to quote someone whose Port opinion I trust greatly: "Extended decanting of Port and especially VP is a good thing. But going too far, say 24 hours of decanting time, in my opinion, serves only to strip the Port of its true beauty while dumbing down the tannins and negating too much of the structural components of the wine. Some adhere to that practice for the sake of having something softer and (arguably) better in terms of aromatic and flavor profiles. I prefer to allow the freshness and natural components of a Port to be enhanced by decanting, not to alter its entire character." I couldn't have said it better myself

That argument, or viewpoint, I got in an instant. I still favour longer decanting times and that smooth taste, refered to. But what a great structured logic for drinking it after a short decanting time. I'll accept, with such logic in mind, that, that method is the purists way, but that on this point, my personal preferences head me in a different direction.

Alan

[Al B.]

For my own Port drinking pleasure, there has to be a happy medium between the pop, decant and pour that many of us have witnessed in the mother land ... as the de rigueur mode for the shippers & producers who are serving VPs to their guests ... and decanting for multiple days. But this of course, is only one man's opinion. I will continue on my merry way of decanting bottles and suggest that for everyone else, 'to each their own.'

Its probably quite clear from my comments in the past which way my preference lies, and I won't repeat my comments here.

However, I really appreciate it when people post a tasting note and give not only their impressions of the wine tasted, but also details of the source of the bottle (which I will try to do more often) and the decanting time before taking the note. It is especially interesting to read the diary accounts of how a VP changes over a number of days and to see the tasters' impression of the wine after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week and even - in some cases - after 1 month!

As Roy says though "to each their own". I like drinking my 1945 Fonseca mixed with tonic water and ginger ale :twisted:

Alex

[Andy Velebil]

Roy,
With the exception of a very young VP (say 2000 or newer) I've never advocated decanting a Port for more then say 12-14 hours. That Warres would be the exception. It didn't dumb down and totally mellow out, go flat, or anything like that. That was the time that it finally came together and really showed what it had the best. It wasn't "...Totally tamed tannins and zero alcohol protruding" But it was finally at that point where everything integrates perfectly and I sat back going wow. I was surprised myself at how good it had come round after 24 hours.

As we all know, not all Ports are created equal and not all Ports will show the same. Factors such as storage conditions, etc., come into play. But to flat out say 24 hours is "Too far" as an absolute statement can be inaccurate. Yes, IMO (and for my tastes) by far the vast majority will be significantly less than 24 hours, but like I said, there may be that odd bottle where 24+ hours is what it needs.

[David Spriggs]

Roy,
I am in agreement with you with respect to the longevity. This Port will last a long, long time.

As for decanting... by decanting do you mean to pour from the bottle into a stoppered or unstoppered decanter for an extended period? Personally, I rarely decant my port unless the sediment is totally interfering with the enjoyment of the wine. I open the port and carefully pour a glass and then re-cork the bottle. That's all -- so the wine does get some air, but not a lot.

I will occasionally decant into a decanter, but that's when most or all of the bottle will consumed that night or it really requires me to decant off the sediment (such as a bottle that's being passed around at the table with people who just don't understand sediment).

-Dave-

[Todd Pettinger]

While relatively new to Vintage Port (3-4 months) I have little experience with older VPs and the decanting times with them.

I suppose I would have to lean towards the viewpoint of Roy to a certain extent, in that I like to enjoy the wine as soon as possible, with less decanting time. While I will concede that certain ports will definitely need more time than others, I am a fan of ports that show well soon after decanting. To me, these would be the ports that I seek out to have in my collection.

It certainly is interesting to see how a port will evolve with extended time in decanter, and I agree with others who state that sometimes after 12 - 24 - 36 hours, the port will show its best. However, I prefer the ports that will show after a minimal of decanting (2-6 hours typically).

Todd

[Derek T.]

However, I prefer the ports that will show after a minimal of decanting (2-6 hours typically).

Todd

In order to come to this conclusion you have to experiment with long decanting times to find out which do and which don't evlove and improve in the decanter. Taking the line of "I always finish it in 24 hours" means you would never know one way or the other. I had this approach up until I joined this Forum and was persuaded to try it by the likes of Tom and Alex. I now have a series of TN's that I can look back at and know with some confidence how long I should decant a particular wine. This is a good resource to have, especially if it is from your own direct experience and not just received wisdom from someone else.

One thing that does trouble me about the long decanting approach is that if you decide, based on experience and/or advice, to decant a wine for 24 hours before an event and it turns out to be disappointing you can never know if it hit a sweet-spot during its time in the decanter (unless you were taking a sip every hour, in which case there would be nothing left for the event). I don't mind too mch about a £30 bottle but I always feel it is a high risk approach with something more special like a high end 63 or 66.

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

As you know we have different opinions on drinking Young Port, and to be fair, I just cant get your argument. I'll accept its my closed mind, but I just dont get it. However, on the subject of decanting times, when I read
Quote:
I am going to quote someone whose Port opinion I trust greatly: "Extended decanting of Port and especially VP is a good thing. But going too far, say 24 hours of decanting time, in my opinion, serves only to strip the Port of its true beauty while dumbing down the tannins and negating too much of the structural components of the wine. Some adhere to that practice for the sake of having something softer and (arguably) better in terms of aromatic and flavor profiles. I prefer to allow the freshness and natural components of a Port to be enhanced by decanting, not to alter its entire character." I couldn't have said it better myself

Yes Alan, I know you prefer to drink older Ports. Then again, my definite preference is for 40 year old VPs and older. Just look at my tasting windows and you'll notice that. Up until 2005, I rarely ever opened bottles much younger than 35 years old except when doing trips to Portugal or cask sample reviews. As a percentage, I bet that 75% of the VPs I drink (removing cask samples and Tours to Portugal) are 30+ years old.

That argument, or viewpoint, I got in an instant. I still favour longer decanting times and that smooth taste, refered to. But what a great structured logic for drinking it after a short decanting time. I'll accept, with such logic in mind, that, that method is the purists way, but that on this point, my personal preferences head me in a different direction.

That quote is actually my own.

[Roy Hersh]

However, I really appreciate it when people post a tasting note and give not only their impressions of the wine tasted, but also details of the source of the bottle (which I will try to do more often) and the decanting time before taking the note. It is especially interesting to read the diary accounts of how a VP changes over a number of days and to see the tasters' impression of the wine after 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week and even - in some cases - after 1 month!

An excellent point Alex. There is no right or wrong when it comes to one's own opinion on how long to decant a specific bottle. It as personal as what your favorite color is. Again, to each their own. But it would be great if there was more consistency in reporting decanting times in TNs.

[Roy Hersh]

Roy,
With the exception of a very young VP (say 2000 or newer) I've never advocated decanting a Port for more then say 12-14 hours. That Warres would be the exception. It didn't dumb down and totally mellow out, go flat, or anything like that. That was the time that it finally came together and really showed what it had the best. It wasn't "...Totally tamed tannins and zero alcohol protruding" But it was finally at that point where everything integrates perfectly and I sat back going wow. I was surprised myself at how good it had come round after 24 hours.

As we all know, not all Ports are created equal and not all Ports will show the same. Factors such as storage conditions, etc., come into play. But to flat out say 24 hours is "Too far" as an absolute statement can be inaccurate. Yes, IMO (and for my tastes) by far the vast majority will be significantly less than 24 hours, but like I said, there may be that odd bottle where 24+ hours is what it needs.

Like anyone else who responds to a request for information on how long to decant a bottle, what I suggest is certainly not the "absolute" or ONLY answer. It is just what has worked for my tasting enjoyment. YMMV as should everyone's here. No harm, no foul there, viva la difference!
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