Who is a port cellar minimalist

[John F. Newman]

For a while I was trying to build up a modest port cellar, but I realized I was becoming more obsessed with buying than drinking and for various other reasons (proper storage concerns, space, finances, etc.), I decided to hold off buying anything other than a couple daily drinkers and drinking down my supply (which means that more and more I will be drinking the "good stuff" - an admittedly relative term).

Are there any admitted port cellar minimalists on this forum, and if so what is your basic philosophy for what you buy to hold, for how long, etc?

[Andy Velebil]

I've bought less recently only as my storage was reaching capacity. I'm still buying here and there, but mostly older and "blue chip" Ports and wines, and in far smaller quantities until I can drink down some things I already have. Must make room to get more things in the future

[Glenn E.]

I've bought less recently only as my storage was reaching capacity. I'm still buying here and there, but mostly older and "blue chip" Ports and wines, and in far smaller quantities until I can drink down some things I already have. Must make room to get more things in the future

+1

I started out as a "minimalist" with a Danby 56 half-size wine fridge, but quickly realized that even a moderate consumption rate means you need a pretty decent-sized cellar if you want to be able to drink your own VP. Consider: if you want to drink just 1 bottle of VP per month then your cellar needs to contain 360 bottles just to cover the next 10 years. But Vintage Port needs more like 30 years to age properly, so realistically even a "minimalist" cellar is 1000+ bottles.

Even at my paltry rate of 1 VP every other month (on average), I still need over 500 bottles of VP to cover the next 30 years. I'll keep buying tawnies as I drink them because they don't need to be kept and aged, but I'm only now approaching "done" as far as cellar-building goes. And that's with 3 full-size wine refrigerators stuffed to bursting with Port.

[John Danza]

While I have a lot of bottles in the cellar, I mostly just buy what I'm going to drink within the next year or two. With the limited interest in port amongst the general wine drinking populace, I don't think it makes financial sense to buy new vintages for laying down for 20-30 years. There's hardly any price appreciation in port these days, so why have the carrying costs?

What I've said above doesn't hold true if you want to hold a special vintage for a birth year, wedding, etc. Then I get it. Otherwise, I'll let someone else store it and I'll buy it when I want it for just about the same price as today.

[Moses Botbol]

I've been buying a lot of VP in the last 12 months (10-15 cases), but it's all 1985 & older; mostly '63 - '70. I haven't been drinking much VP (last night was '70 Gonzalez Byass). I usually buy Ferreira 10 or D'Oliveira 10 for $25. I like several styles of port, so I'll let the best deals win me over.

I figure the reserves will settle from going easy on the VP.

[Glenn E.]

There's hardly any price appreciation in port these days, so why have the carrying costs?

Tell that to the 1960s! Top-end Ports are now $250-$300 on winesearcher. I used to be able to find those regularly for $150.

We look at 1985s today and think "why would I buy a 2011?" Easy to ask, because the price is the same. But when the 1985s were released they weren't $60-$80 - there's been quite a bit of an increase. It just hasn't out-paced the release prices of new Ports.

My "carrying costs" are about $1/bottle per year. I think they'll appreciate more than that at retail over the same time. Maybe not over the next 5-10 years, but certainly over the next 20-30.

[Moses Botbol]

We look at 1985s today and think "why would I buy a 2011?" Easy to ask, because the price is the same. But when the 1985s were released they weren't $60-$80 - there's been quite a bit of an increase. It just hasn't out-paced the release prices of new Ports.

I'll take the 20-40 head start every time if it's a good vintage. I just can't see buying 2011 (outside of the novelty bottles) when there's fine vintages like '85 Fonseca, Dow, Grahams, Taylor for similar prices. I'll take a gamble on provenance.

Too easy to buy aged tawny and most are tasting pretty good these days; especially Taylor! It's a no brainer when wicked good tawny is at every street corner packy.

[John Danza]

There's hardly any price appreciation in port these days, so why have the carrying costs?

Tell that to the 1960s! Top-end Ports are now $250-$300 on winesearcher. I used to be able to find those regularly for $150.

We look at 1985s today and think "why would I buy a 2011?" Easy to ask, because the price is the same. But when the 1985s were released they weren't $60-$80 - there's been quite a bit of an increase. It just hasn't out-paced the release prices of new Ports.

My "carrying costs" are about $1/bottle per year. I think they'll appreciate more than that at retail over the same time. Maybe not over the next 5-10 years, but certainly over the next 20-30.

Hi Glenn,

I hear what you're saying, but what's true now wasn't true back then. There was a price appreciation that occurred in the mid-to-late '90s that affected Bordeaux and to some extent Port, driven by the auction market. The result was that most of the major wineries in Bordeaux shifted their prices up on new releases to somewhat match what was happening in the auction market for releases that were less than 10 years old. The major Port houses did the same thing to some extent. It's not that difficult to buy great port from the '83 and '85 vintage at the same or lower prices as the 2007 or 2011 vintage from the same houses. I don't see that changing.

BTW, relative to your comment about the 1960s. My first bottle of great port that I bought at auction was 1963 Grahams. I bought two bottles at auction in 1990 for a total of $250 a bottle, which was pretty much typical auction price at the time. I could replace those bottles today for the same price pretty easily. Just sayin'.

[Glenn E.]

It's not that difficult to buy great port from the '83 and '85 vintage at the same or lower prices as the 2007 or 2011 vintage from the same houses. I don't see that changing.

Absolutely, but that's sort of my point. I expect that in another 30 years we'll be able to buy the 2007 or 2011 for around the same price as the newly released 2037 or 2041. But I expect that price to be more than $80 (today's price) + $30 ($1/year). So it "pays" to buy the 2007 and 2011 now and store it yourself, plus then you'll also know the provenance.

BTW, relative to your comment about the 1960s. My first bottle of great port that I bought at auction was 1963 Grahams. I bought two bottles at auction in 1990 for a total of $250 a bottle, which was pretty much typical auction price at the time. I could replace those bottles today for the same price pretty easily. Just sayin'.

Odd... when I started buying Port in the mid-2000s, and for several years, I could get just about any mid-60s VP for around $150 at retail over the internet. I'm not sure what auction pricing was like at that time as I wasn't shopping auctions. Prices that I've seen have definitely gone up over the last decade as they've aged from ~40 years old to ~50 years old.

[Eric Menchen]

I didn't think I was a minimalist, but apparently by Glenn's counting I am. Like Glenn, I plan on drinking about one bottle of Port a month, maybe a little more. I expect to live 45 more years, so that comes to 540 bottles. I have about 600, so I'm covered. I'll probably drink a little more, and buy replacements for a few more years.

I consider the floor space of my cellar and racking a sunk cost. Electricity for the chiller runs less than $0.10/bottle/year. I suppose the refrigeration unit will die some day and need to be replaced, and I won't be able to find one for $300 like the last one cost, so that will make storage more expensive. I still think it will end up being less than $1/bottle/year.

I've seen a lot of wine prices go a fair amount in the last five years. I think there was a distinct lull around the time of the economic downturn of 2008/9, which would have been more than a lull if it hadn't been for the Chinese. When I go on wine-searcher looking at prices, I regularly look at the price history on the "Details, Scores & Price History" tab, and I'm surprised how much prices have gone up since I started buying seriously about five years ago. Of course there are exceptions to every trend. I guess I've been buying more Bordeaux lately, and the increase is pretty clear there.

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[Andy Velebil]

Hi Glenn,

I hear what you're saying, but what's true now wasn't true back then. There was a price appreciation that occurred in the mid-to-late '90s that affected Bordeaux and to some extent Port, driven by the auction market. The result was that most of the major wineries in Bordeaux shifted their prices up on new releases to somewhat match what was happening in the auction market for releases that were less than 10 years old. The major Port houses did the same thing to some extent. It's not that difficult to buy great port from the '83 and '85 vintage at the same or lower prices as the 2007 or 2011 vintage from the same houses. I don't see that changing.

BTW, relative to your comment about the 1960s. My first bottle of great port that I bought at auction was 1963 Grahams. I bought two bottles at auction in 1990 for a total of $250 a bottle, which was pretty much typical auction price at the time. I could replace those bottles today for the same price pretty easily. Just sayin'.

John,
I would agree, to a certain point. While what you talk about was true the current issue is most Port houses have realized they need to change the oversupply of VP's, which tend to keep prices low. Starting with the 2011 vintage, most larger houses produced far less quantity of old Ports and sold everything off. There will not be later ex-cellar releases at good prices. With far lower quantity produced it will get harder and harder to find as they get older and people drink them up. Thus, like old VP's now who's prices have gone up as the supplies have gone down, I foresee younger VP's going up in price at a faster rate than in the past.

[Roy Hersh]

John wrote:

BTW, relative to your comment about the 1960s. My first bottle of great port that I bought at auction was 1963 Grahams. I bought two bottles at auction in 1990 for a total of $250 a bottle, which was pretty much typical auction price at the time. I could replace those bottles today for the same price pretty easily. Just sayin'.

From 1990-1993, I was able to buy 1963 Graham's, Fonseca and Taylor at retail (Tinamou, Winexchange and Golden West) at $109-129 per bottle. So if you really paid $250 each ... at auction no less, that sounds like pretty bad pricing. I bought mags of 1970 during the same period, (Taylor/Fonseca) from a great auction house that you know in Chicago from back then ... at less than that too.

[Tom Archer]

and if so what is your basic philosophy for what you buy to hold, for how long, etc

1) No bottle is too old or too rare to be drunk - eventually..

2) No bottle should live beyond 200 years.

3) Only one bottle in seventy two should make it past 100 years - in my case, 2 p.a.

4) Survival of the fittest - for any VP, drink your leaky bottles, most ullaged, or least provenanced, first - and in that order..

5) Assume you will live forever.