NYC's Best Restaurant Wine List Values

[Roy Hersh]

https://www.zagat.com/b/new-york-city/n ... vf382fTB5g

[Lindsay E.]

It's refreshing to know that some restaurants (even in the expensive Big Apple) are focused on value wines. Often, when I look at a restaurant's wine list, the list looks to me like the wine buyer has intentionally avoided including any value wines and instead select really crappy low priced wines so that the buyer is forced to over spend on a top bottle just to get something decent. Do you guys agree that most restaurants purposely avoid stocking "value" wines?

I don't by wine in a restaurant unless its a value wine, and by value wine I mean that the wine massively over delivers at its price to the point where I would be willing to pay the "restaurant double+ mark up" price just to buy that wine at a retail wine store. Needless to say, I don't find wines that meet this requirement very often. However, I think there are many value wines out there, they just don't find their way to restaurant lists very often. That being said, I can think of several wines I've had at restaurants this year that I felt over delivered, even at the restaurant markup price, and I would love to hear from others on this board about what wines they've bought at restaurants recently that fit the "value" category.

The value wines I've bought at restaurants this year are:
2009 Muga reserva $67
2005 Lopez de Herredia gravonia blanco $50
2013 Ch. Musar jaune $44 ($11/ glass pour) Unbelievable!!

I also agreed with suggestions from the article that Roy linked to, that listed white's from the Jura, Sicilian Reds from Mt. Etna, and Cru Beaujolais

[Andy Velebil]

2013 Ch. Musar jaune $44 ($11/ glass pour) Unbelievable!!

That is a good deal for a restaurant, wow.

[Moses Botbol]

We can see some great deals at times in Boston. Many restaurants have invested over the years in their cellars and it shows. Especially the case with Italian restaurants. They seem to understand the idea of building a cellar than do the local steak houses. Most steakhouses around here do not invest in wine, so everything us just what the distributors are selling at present.

We did see some good deals at Capital Grille in Boston when we went about a month or so. Several good bottles under $40; from Italy and France.

[Steve Pollack]

We can see some great deals at times in Boston. Many restaurants have invested over the years in their cellars and it shows. Especially the case with Italian restaurants. They seem to understand the idea of building a cellar than do the local steak houses. Most steakhouses around here do not invest in wine, so everything us just what the distributors are selling at present.

We did see some good deals at Capital Grille in Boston when we went about a month or so. Several good bottles under $40; from Italy and France.

Which Italian restaurants specifically, Moses? Thanks!

[Moses Botbol]

We can see some great deals at times in Boston. Many restaurants have invested over the years in their cellars and it shows. Especially the case with Italian restaurants. They seem to understand the idea of building a cellar than do the local steak houses. Most steakhouses around here do not invest in wine, so everything us just what the distributors are selling at present.

We did see some good deals at Capital Grille in Boston when we went about a month or so. Several good bottles under $40; from Italy and France.

Which Italian restaurants specifically, Moses? Thanks!

Here are two in Waltham, both on Main St; the opposite ends of the street. Both are great. La Campania has a little better atmosphere. Il Capriccio's wines go back further, but La Campania has more regions, more unique stuff. Both have many gems on there. This year we bought Giacosa Nero d'Alba or Selvapiana Chianti for $40ish

La Campania - http://www.lacampania.com
Il Capriccio - http://www.ilcapricciowaltham.com

[Bradley Bogdan]

2013 Ch. Musar jaune $44 ($11/ glass pour) Unbelievable!!

That is a good deal for a restaurant, wow.

Not to be wet blanket, but 2x normal retail on a current vintage isn't what I'd call a good deal, that's pretty standard. If you're much above that, you're just raping and pillaging. If you're much below that, then we can talk about how good a deal it is. Perhaps I'm a bit spoiled not having lived in major cities though.

That said, Musar Jaune is usually solid QPR at retail and a really nicely made wine. Haven't tried the 2013 though.


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[Andy Velebil]

2013 Ch. Musar jaune $44 ($11/ glass pour) Unbelievable!!

That is a good deal for a restaurant, wow.

Not to be wet blanket, but 2x normal retail on a current vintage isn't what I'd call a good deal, that's pretty standard. If you're much above that, you're just raping and pillaging. If you're much below that, then we can talk about how good a deal it is. Perhaps I'm a bit spoiled not having lived in major cities though.

That said, Musar Jaune is usually solid QPR at retail and a really nicely made wine. Haven't tried the 2013 though.


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You are spoiled. Down here mark-ups are usually around the 3x range. I've never understood that. Restaurants, if they lowered prices, could easily make it up in volume. I can recall more times I passed on getting a glass or bottle of wine at lunch or dinner because the prices were just insane. When a single glass is 1/2 the price of the bottle at retail there is a problem.

[Moses Botbol]

2013 Ch. Musar jaune $44 ($11/ glass pour) Unbelievable!!

That is a good deal for a restaurant, wow.

Not to be wet blanket, but 2x normal retail on a current vintage isn't what I'd call a good deal, that's pretty standard.

Would agree. I look for about 1.5x retail when combing over the list.

1970 Croft for $50, is that -1.5x cost?

[Bradley Bogdan]

That is a good deal for a restaurant, wow.

Not to be wet blanket, but 2x normal retail on a current vintage isn't what I'd call a good deal, that's pretty standard.

Would agree. I look for about 1.5x retail when combing over the list.

1970 Croft for $50, is that -1.5x cost?

Now THAT is a screaming deal!


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[Bradley Bogdan]

That is a good deal for a restaurant, wow.

Not to be wet blanket, but 2x normal retail on a current vintage isn't what I'd call a good deal, that's pretty standard. If you're much above that, you're just raping and pillaging. If you're much below that, then we can talk about how good a deal it is. Perhaps I'm a bit spoiled not having lived in major cities though.

That said, Musar Jaune is usually solid QPR at retail and a really nicely made wine. Haven't tried the 2013 though.


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You are spoiled. Down here mark-ups are usually around the 3x range. I've never understood that. Restaurants, if they lowered prices, could easily make it up in volume. I can recall more times I passed on getting a glass or bottle of wine at lunch or dinner because the prices were just insane. When a single glass is 1/2 the price of the bottle at retail there is a problem.

Yeah those are the times when I'll just bring a bottle, assuming corkage isn't insane as well. I figure even if I'm not bringing something crazy, $20 on a $30 bottle is better than $80 for a similar $30 bottle off their list, which defeats the point of putting together a list. Unfortunately, the majority of folks buying a bottle have no clue as to retail price, so I'm guessing silly markups have less of an impact on bottom lines than we might hope.


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[Moses Botbol]

Unfortunately, the majority of folks buying a bottle have no clue as to retail price, so I'm guessing silly markups have less of an impact on bottom lines than we might hope.

I don't believe that is necessarily true. If it's a wine they've heard of, they should have a general idea on the retail. One thing a restaurant can do is serve wines most people are unfamiliar with. This works in a regional cuisine restaurant, but not in a steakhouse or continental food. Those places need to serve familiar wine.

[Eric Menchen]

Recently ate at a place that had all organic and biodynamic wines. Yeah, I was unfamiliar with just about all of them. And I was underwhelmed by my choice.

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[Moses Botbol]

Recently ate at a place that had all organic and biodynamic wines. Yeah, I was unfamiliar with just about all of them. And I was underwhelmed by my choice.

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We went to a restaurant in Montreal that had an all Canadien wine list; was pretty cool.

[Eric Menchen]

We went to a restaurant in Montreal that had an all Canadien wine list; was pretty cool.

Hmmm, I must admit I know nothing about those other than ice wines. So were they good?

[Moses Botbol]

We went to a restaurant in Montreal that had an all Canadien wine list; was pretty cool.

Hmmm, I must admit I know nothing about those other than ice wines. So were they good?

Well, we had one bottle from Western Canada, a Syrah that was a lighter style and very elegant. We both liked it. I don't remember the name. Most Canadian wines are on the lighter side so the restaurant is said, which is fine by me. I would buy the wine we had if I saw it for sale.

[Lindsay E.]

Wow, I'm happy to see that my last post reignited this topic and that several people have chimed-in over the last week. I wanted to respond to a couple of posts:

Andy - I've often thought the same thing that you mentioned...if restaurants would lower the price, wouldn't they make up for the lost profits in volume? It's not like that would be a terribly difficult thing to calculate. Its one of those questions that I'd love to ask a panel of restaurant wine buyers if I ever get the opportunity. I also want to challenge the idea that the majority of folks buying wine don't even know the prices...to the "majority of folks that are oblivious to wine prices even buy expensive wine regularly at a restaurant? Before I got "into" wine, I didn't even bother to look at a wine list. If I thought that I wanted wine, then I just bought a red or white by-the-glass. And if I was buying a bottle for some reason, then I just bought something cheap so even if the restaurant made $20 off of my $10 retail bottle by charging me $30, they weren't making much more from the 4 glasses of wine than they would have if I'd purchased 4 cocktails instead. The big corporate restaurants/steakhouses probably don't have an incentive to lower the price because the people buying the expensive bottle are probably either wealthy enough to where they don't care about what a restaurant is charging, or they are expensing the dinner on the company card.

Eric - Will Colorado even allow you to bring your own bottle? I'd like to see that law changed if it hasn't been already. What do you do about the problem in Colorado? Have you found any good wine value restaurants in Boulder or Denver?

Oh, one more value wine I had this year:
2012 Avennia Justine by the glass $12, that was yummy

[Moses Botbol]

The big corporate restaurants/steakhouses probably don't have an incentive to lower the price because the people buying the expensive bottle are probably either wealthy enough to where they don't care about what a restaurant is charging, or they are expensing the dinner on the company card.

Steakhouses like Capital Grille in particular do not invest in wines, they just buy whatever is being distributed currently. They don't have the facility or inclination to hold wine for years or decades.

[Eric Menchen]

Eric - Will Colorado even allow you to bring your own bottle? I'd like to see that law changed if it hasn't been already. What do you do about the problem in Colorado? Have you found any good wine value restaurants in Boulder or Denver?

You can't bring a bottle to a restaurant in Colorado. And no, I haven't really found any good wine value restaurants, so I rarely buy bottles in restaurants around here. When a bottle is called for, I try to find something that isn't too unreasonable.

[Lindsay E.]

Eric - Will Colorado even allow you to bring your own bottle? I'd like to see that law changed if it hasn't been already. What do you do about the problem in Colorado? Have you found any good wine value restaurants in Boulder or Denver?

You can't bring a bottle to a restaurant in Colorado. And no, I haven't really found any good wine value restaurants, so I rarely buy bottles in restaurants around here. When a bottle is called for, I try to find something that isn't too unreasonable.

The closest I've come to finding a "wine value" in Colorado was a restaurant that had Chiarli premium lambruscco by the glass for $11. While the price seemed steep, the actual wine was so damn good, and so food friendly (and refreshing during the middle of summer) that it seemed like a value at the time. Wine is not cheap in CO, not even at big retail stores. For that reason, I usually schlep a lot of wine in my luggage when I come, and usually stick to liquor and specialty beer when I go to restaurants in Denver and Boulder.