Establishing my port collection.

[Thomas V]

I think you'd be harder pushed to find a house which didn't declare in 1994

There is probably an exception to prove the rule, but aside from that, '94 was a turkey shoot for the producers.

That said, whilst vintage quality was abundant in '94, I sense that real class may be a bit more elusive. However, we'll see - we won't really know until they hit 40 in 2034..

At a previous FTLOP gathering where we did a large number of 1994's to check on them, there were two distinctive camps. Those that were still showing very youthful and those that were maturing much faster. No surprise, as at just over 20 years old now some of the faster maturing ones are just starting to enter their prime drinking windows.

...and who did not declare 1994?

Could you share some further light on that segmentation that you experienced during your 94' tasting? Which houses where maturing fast and closing in on their prime drinking window and which had the structure and tannings to age for multiple decades?

[Eric Menchen]

You forget the small group that clearly created underwhelming or flawed products (Passadouro and Broadbent come to mind)

I was wondering if someone would mention that Broadbent. I haven't tasted the Passadouro, but I have one to try.

[Andy Velebil]

[

Could you share some further light on that segmentation that you experienced during your 94' tasting? Which houses where maturing fast and closing in on their prime drinking window and which had the structure and tannings to age for multiple decades?

FTLOP Newsletter issue #84 has a tasting from Denmark (you can download it from the home page under "Subscribers"). I wasn't there for that one. I thought there was a write up about ours in Seattle and I'm trying to find it.

[Glenn E.]

You forget the small group that clearly created underwhelming or flawed products (Passadouro and Broadbent come to mind)

I was wondering if someone would mention that Broadbent. I haven't tasted the Passadouro, but I have one to try.

It was all 3, wasn't it? Including the Niepoort? Or was that the 1985 horizontal?

[Thomas V]

Hey guys.

We are doing a tasting in my club this autumn. The theme is Colheita versus Tawny where people will get to experience the difference in expression between a blended and non blended oak matured port. The template for the line up will be like this

10 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 10 year old Colheita from house A
20 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 20 year old Colheita from house B
30 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 30 year old Colheita from house C
40 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 40 year old Colheita from house D

What would your suggestions be for the houses and the Colheita years?

My current idea is as follows, but I am very open for suggestions. Could be changes in Colheita vintages or houses tough I prefer houses that specializes in oak matured port.

10YO Andresen versus a 2000 Andresen Colheita
20YO Niepoort versus a 1994 Niepoort Colheita
30YO Wiese & Krohn versus a 1987 Wiese & Krohn Colheita
40YO Kopke versus a 1976 Kopke Colheita

Cheers

[Eric Menchen]

Sounds fun. Glenn has suggested that a Colheita needs about 10 more years to match the complexity of a blended tawny. You can confirm or refute that claim. And given it, maybe throw in one more Colheita like a 1965 or '66 for good measure? 1965 Kopke is tasty.

[Bradley Bogdan]

That sounds like a very cool tasting. I'd love to hear the results


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkz. U

[Thomas V]

Sounds fun. Glenn has suggested that a Colheita needs about 10 more years to match the complexity of a blended tawny. You can confirm or refute that claim. And given it, maybe throw in one more Colheita like a 1965 or '66 for good measure? 1965 Kopke is tasty.

It will be an interesting experiment for sure. I especially look forward of the head to head between the 30YO and 40YO versus their respective counterpart colheitas.

I have also as you mention Eric thought about adding an extra old colheita if I can manage to keep the budget of this tasting reasonable.

Input to the line up and the colheita years are still very welcome.

[John M.]

Hey guys.

We are doing a tasting in my club this autumn. The theme is Colheita versus Tawny where people will get to experience the difference in expression between a blended and non blended oak matured port. The template for the line up will be like this

10 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 10 year old Colheita from house A
20 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 20 year old Colheita from house B
30 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 30 year old Colheita from house C
40 Year Tawny Port versus a roughly a 40 year old Colheita from house D

What would your suggestions be for the houses and the Colheita years?

My current idea is as follows, but I am very open for suggestions. Could be changes in Colheita vintages or houses tough I prefer houses that specializes in oak matured port.

10YO Andresen versus a 2000 Andresen Colheita
20YO Niepoort versus a 1994 Niepoort Colheita
30YO Wiese & Krohn versus a 1987 Wiese & Krohn Colheita
40YO Kopke versus a 1976 Kopke Colheita

Cheers

That's an awesome idea! Cheers!

[Glenn E.]

Sounds fun. Glenn has suggested that a Colheita needs about 10 more years to match the complexity of a blended tawny. You can confirm or refute that claim. And given it, maybe throw in one more Colheita like a 1965 or '66 for good measure? 1965 Kopke is tasty.

'66 Kopke is also superb if you can find it. I don't know if any has been bottled recently, though... IIRC the last bottling might have been 2006 or 2007?

My 10 year rule of thumb comes mostly from three things:

1. At the time I was drinking a lot of 20-yr old Tawny Ports and noticed that a Colheita from the 90's just didn't have the same flavor profile, but ones from the 80's did. I noticed a similar offset for the 40-yr old Tawny Ports I was drinking at the time compared to Colheitas from the 70's and 60's.

I've since done some thinking and studying, and came up with some possible reasons...

2. Blended tawnies are often significantly older than the number on the label. It's quite common for a "10 Year Old Tawny Port" to actually be closer to 14 or 16 years old on average. 20-yr olds might actually be closer to 28. I know of "40 Year Old Tawny Ports" that are well over 60 years old!

3. While TWAIOA are normally consumed within a year or two of bottling, Colheitas can sometimes sit in a store for a couple of years and then sit in your cellar for a couple more years. So while that delicious 1976 Krohn Colheita that you're savoring might look like it is 40 years old (2016 - 1976 = 40), it was bottled in 2007 and so is really only 31 years old.

That said, I do still find that Colheitas need a little more time (in wood) to develop the same character that you find in a blended TWAIOA even when comparing "actual age". But it's probably closer to 20% than a flat 10 years.

[Thomas V]

That's an awesome idea! Cheers!

Thanks. This will be great fun I am sure of it.

[Thomas V]

2. Blended tawnies are often significantly older than the number on the label. It's quite common for a "10 Year Old Tawny Port" to actually be closer to 14 or 16 years old on average. 20-yr olds might actually be closer to 28. I know of "40 Year Old Tawny Ports" that are well over 60 years old!

3. While TWAIOA are normally consumed within a year or two of bottling, Colheitas can sometimes sit in a store for a couple of years and then sit in your cellar for a couple more years. So while that delicious 1976 Krohn Colheita that you're savoring might look like it is 40 years old (2016 - 1976 = 40), it was bottled in 2007 and so is really only 31 years old.

That said, I do still find that Colheitas need a little more time (in wood) to develop the same character that you find in a blended TWAIOA even when comparing "actual age". But it's probably closer to 20% than a flat 10 years.

I totally support your notion on point 2 and 3. The good thing about the tasting is that we have sufficient stem ware that our members will have the possibility to have 8 glasses with all the 8 mentioned ports at the same time. So even though we will serve them in flights of 2 (4 flights) they will get the option to cross sample the 20YO tawny versus the 30 year old colheita etc. to see if those are closer in resemblance in character.

Since I got Mr. Tawny's attention, any input on my selection of houses and years Glenn?

[Glenn E.]

Since I got Mr. Tawny's attention, any input on my selection of houses and years Glenn?

I think they look great! Those all happen to be bottles that I could probably also source, and for a tasting like this sourcing is often your main restriction. I might swap Andresen and Niepoort, but that's only because I really like the Niepoort 10-yr old and it's one of the few 10-yr olds that I've found that I do actually enjoy. But either way it looks like a great tasting!

Did Krohn make a 40-yr old? Being able to sneak the 1976 Krohn Colheita into the tasting would also be a fine goal. I know that Kopke's 1984 Colheita and 30-yr old Tawny are both superb, so if a Krohn 40 exists that might be another fine swap.

[Thomas V]

Since I got Mr. Tawny's attention, any input on my selection of houses and years Glenn?

I think they look great! Those all happen to be bottles that I could probably also source, and for a tasting like this sourcing is often your main restriction. I might swap Andresen and Niepoort, but that's only because I really like the Niepoort 10-yr old and it's one of the few 10-yr olds that I've found that I do actually enjoy. But either way it looks like a great tasting!

Did Krohn make a 40-yr old? Being able to sneak the 1976 Krohn Colheita into the tasting would also be a fine goal. I know that Kopke's 1984 Colheita and 30-yr old Tawny are both superb, so if a Krohn 40 exists that might be another fine swap.

The reason I've chosen the Andresen as the 10YO instead of the Niepoort is that we had that big 10YO tawny horizontal with the club and the Niepoort was in that line up. So to not serve it again I chose it as the 20YO.

Regarding the Krohn I also really wanted the 1976 but I don't believe they have ever made a 40YO and then the equation doesn't add up.

As for the very old colheita from 1966, how does Barros and Dalva hold up against the Kopke?

[Thomas V]

Which Vesuvio vintages do you adore? And which do you reckon is best value for the bucks?

I was thinking 2007, 2005, 2004 & 2003. If any from the 90 (not 94)?

I have a found a vendor that has pretty fair prices on these.

• 91 - 83 USD
  95 - 55 USD
  96 - 55 USD
  99 - 55 USD
  97 - 69 USD
  03 - 69 USD
  04 - 69 USD
  05 - 69 USD
  06 - 83 USD
  07 - 69 USD

[Jasper A.]

Which Vesuvio vintages do you adore? And which do you reckon is best value for the bucks?

I was thinking 2007, 2005, 2004 & 2003. If any from the 90 (not 94)?

I have a found a vendor that has pretty fair prices on these.

• 91 - 83 USD
  95 - 55 USD
  96 - 55 USD
  99 - 55 USD
  97 - 69 USD
  03 - 69 USD
  04 - 69 USD
  05 - 69 USD
  06 - 83 USD
  07 - 69 USD

I think there is not much of a price difference between classic and non-classic years. Go for the classic years in that case. Personally i would like to find a A Capella Vesuvio for a decent price (07 and 11).

[Eric Menchen]

I think there is not much of a price difference between classic and non-classic years. Go for the classic years in that case. Personally i would like to find a A Capella Vesuvio for a decent price (07 and 11).

And to build on that, of those years from the '90s, I'd also pick the '97. See:
http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopfo ... 12&t=17325

[Al B.]

I'm catching up on posts and have read through this thread with great interest. It's really fun to see someone following the same path that I did a few years ago, building up a cellar that will mature and last for years.

The 1980s and 1990s offer pretty good value for money at the moment and are a very good place to start for ports which are relatively easy to find and not too expensive yet which will mature and last for many years. 1983 and 1985 are good years to buy into and form the core of any collection, but as well as 1980 (where I would mainly concentrate on the Symington ports) don't overlook the single quinta and vintage ports from 1987, 1986 or 1982. You can also sometimes come across Warre or Smith Woodhouse bottle aged LBVs from the 1980s and these tend to be great value for money.

1994 is a great vintage. Most people made fabulous ports - good value for money can be found in Martinez and Croft but the real stars of Taylor, Fonseca and Vesuvio tend to be pretty expensive. Tom's comment earlier about 1994 being rather closed is exactly right. Just at the point when tradition says these wines are ready for drinking, they appear to have shut down! But have patience, these will be great again in 5 years. Taylor Fladgate's wines from 1992 are the other stand-outs for me in the 1990 decade, but these are very expensive. 1991 and 1997 have surprised me with how mature they are and how ready to drink I find them. I'm sure they will last, but I'm not sure how they will mature over the next 2-3 decades.

Have you found out yet what age you really like your vintage port? You might like the exuberant fruitiness and powerful tannins of very young port - in which case you can just buy a case or two of the latest vintage and drink those up while waiting for the next vintage to be released. Or you may like that balance between fruit and power and mature tones that you tend to find in teenage port - in which case you want to have a ready supply of 16-21 year old port (1995-2000). Or you may like the leathery dried fig tones of 50 year old port - in which case you should be buying 1966, 1967 and 1970 ports today before they become scarce and expensive in a couple of years time when all the babies born in 1970 start buying and drinking 50 year old port to celebrate their 50th birthdays!

I would recommend you keep an eye out for a sensibly priced bottle or two from the 1960s or 1970s. These would give you something to drink while you wait for your port from the 1980s to mature a little more. It's also a really good idea to buy some "cellar defenders" - relatively cheap bottles of port which you enjoy drinking and which can stop you opening one of your precious bottles of vintage port. 10 year old tawny port or a bottle of LBV would be obvious things to use.


A little further up the thread you asked a specific question about Vesuvio's ports. I love these ports and since they only started production with the 1989 vintage I have been able to build up a complete vertical of all the ports they have produced. I've also been lucky enough to have tasted the complete range on four separate occasions, the most recent being in February this year. I rank the vintages like this:

1. 1989 - 89 points
2. 1990 - 87 points
3. 1991 - 89 points
4. 1992 - 90 points
5. 1994 - 94 points
6. 1995 - 90 points (and is drinking very well at the moment @ 92)
7. 1996 - 90 points
8. 1997 - 91 points
9. 1998 - 92 points
10. 1999 - 88 points
11. 2000 - 91 points
12. 2001 - 88 points
13. 2003 - 94 points
14. 2004 - 91 points
15. 2005 - 90 points
16. 2006 - 91 points
17. 2007 - 92 points
18. 2008 - 91 points
19. 2009 - 92 points
20. 2010 - 91 points
21. 2011 - 95 points and a real star of the vintage IMO
22. 2012 - 90 points
23. 2013 - 89 points

So from the list you posted I'd go for the 1995, 1996 and 2003 vintages. Have fun!

[Thomas V]

Hi Al,

Thanks for your great and elaborate post.

Your comments about the 1980's are spot on and I share your point of view. I am focussing on building out my collection with bottles from 80, 83 and 85.

Currently I have these

1983 Grahams (2)
1983 Ramos Pinto
1985 Smith Woodhouse (2)
1985 Ferreira

But I want to expand with

1980 Ferreira
1983 Dow's
1983 Gould Campbell (These are hard to find)
1985 Gould Campbell
1985 Warre's (I have tasted this and quite liked it)
1985 Dow's
1985 Fonseca
1985 Grahams (Had 1 that was faulty. Need to give this another shot)

I like your pointers on the LBV where I really would like to get some Warre, SWC or Crasto. What SQ could you recommend from the eighties?

The stars of the 1994 vintage are really expensive, but it will only get worse. But I need to include the into my collection at some point. Where sooner rather than later will be the least expensive. I have tasted the Grahams (Was really bad, we even opened a second bottle) and the Vesuvio. The Vesuvio was stellar and the best port I have ever tasted 95+ points. I have also taken a liken to the 1997 vintage. I find they peculiar and interesting had the Graham's and Dow's.

Regarding my tasting preference I am kinda of a limbo at the moment. I really enjoy the 2011 I have tasted, as well at the Vesuvio 2013. I am also really into the 1994 Vesuvio I have had as well as Smith Woodhouse and Warre's 1985. I also was huge on the 2003 and 1997 Graham's. The oldest vintages I have had were a 1970 and a 1977 Graham's. I liked the1970 but I wasn't blown away and some of the others youngsters in my Port Club have been teasing me that I haven't yet learnt to appreciate older vintage ports. I don't think that is the case. I have had plenty developed vintages like the 1985 Warre's & Dow's that I have thoroughly enjoyed. But the circumstances for the Graham tasting was also sub par. The wines were not decanted ahead of time so it was basically a pop n pour when we arrived. So they had gotten like 2 hours of air time when we drank them. Not optimal.

I love Vesuvio. It is my favourit quinta and producer of vintage port. I just immensely enjoy their style and elegance. Thank you for you personal rankings and recommendations.

On my Vesuvio buy list I now have. Let me know if you are going to do a full vertical some time. I would travel to the UK or Porto for that.

2011
2007
2003
1996
1995
1994


P.s. General question. Might seem silly. Is Offley Boa Vista a SQ vintage? I don't know why. I just always thought of it as the name of the company, but I realised that is just Offley right?

[Moses Botbol]

I recently had '85 Offley and '85 Delaforce side-by-side. Both are good "drinkers" that can be had at a nice price. Certainly not a Fonseca, but if you want to enjoy the '85 vintage now they are both ready to drink.