1800 'HP Barradas' Reserva Particular (CVM?) - 2 bottles for sale

[Paul A.]

Hi everyone,

I am in possession of two bottles of 1800 Madeira, namely 'HP Barradas' Reserva Particular, which I purchased from a Portuguese family who had been holding onto them for a while (they assured me they have been stored upright in a passive cellar and I have no reason to doubt this - the dirt/dust on the bottles is consistent with this and they haven't leaked at all). There is limited information available online but my research concludes they are potentially Companhia Vinicola da Madeira juice. The label says they were bottled in 1996.

Firstly, is anyone familiar with this bottling or able to provide any further insight?

As the below photos show, they are in very decent condition with fill levels just into the neck and just below the neck respectively. The wax on one bottle is in excellent condition whereas the other one has chipped off in the middle, exposing the top of the cork (but the cork appears dry and no juice has escaped).

I am located in New York City. If you are interested then please state your interest here or send me a PM. I'm not really sure about pricing but I am open to offers or guidance.

Many thanks

Paul

[Paul A.]

Pictures of wax.

[Andy Velebil]

Odd that they seem to have been rebottled into a modern Bordeaux style bottle (which appear to be different shades of green - though could just be the pic), two different types of wax used (one appears black with air bubbles the other brown and smooth), and labels that look like they've been made on a home printer.

What kind of documentation did the people you bought it have with regards to where they got it, etc?

What did you pay for them when you acquired them?

[Paul A.]

Odd that they seem to have been rebottled into a modern Bordeaux style bottle (which appear to be different shades of green - though could just be the pic), two different types of wax used (one appears black with air bubbles the other brown and smooth)

I think that is just my photography and the angle - the wax is an identical color on both bottles and they both have the tiny air bubbles. The bottle colors are also the same.

, and labels that look like they've been made on a home printer.

I know what you mean, they aren't exactly pretty labels. However they're slightly more substantial than one could achieve on a home printer (in my view at least).

What kind of documentation did the people you bought it have with regards to where they got it, etc?

No formal documentation, but they have an interesting back story to explain the provenance. They were purchased from Helena Araujo - the Araujo family lived on the island of Madeira for over 300 years and her ancestors were madeira producers in the late 18th Century. Araujo Henriques & Co. eventually became part of HM Borges, and the Araujo family are still shareholders in Borges.

What did you pay for them when you acquired them?

I would prefer not to reveal exact figures, but it wasn't an insignificant sum.

[Eric Ifune]

I believe Christies sold some similar looking bottles last year. They were recorked in 1996. Original bottling date is not listed.

[Andy Velebil]

I believe Christies sold some similar looking bottles last year. They were recorked in 1996. Original bottling date is not listed.

Yes they sold two similar bottles (same labels) as these two 12-2-15 for $1,960 at their New York Auction.

[Paul A.]

Many thanks Eric and Andy - I wasn't actually aware of that auction lot as it looks like it was quite recent (December 2015). Thanks for drawing my attention to it. I guess that gives me a rough idea of value, albeit a value ceiling as I wouldn't expect to achieve as much as Christies especially with their premium / commission etc.

I think I would be happy to sell them for $750 each or $1,400 for both.

Paul

[Roy Hersh]

Eric,

I think these two look like they were re-bottled, not just re-corked.

But do you think this is actually from CVM ... like the 1795 Terrantez we've had together?

Seems like a fair asking price. Any idea of the grape(s)?

[Eric Ifune]

Not sure of the history of HP Barradas, so don't know of any CVM connection. Probably Verdelho since that was far and away the most planted variety prephylloxera. Sorta like Tinta Negra these days. The other varieties were much rarer and highly prized, and so the variety would have been put on any label.

[Paul A.]

I think these two look like they were re-bottled, not just re-corked.

I agree, and I think it is the same case with the Christies bottles. The Portuguese words 'reengarrafado em 1996' literally mean 'rebottled in 1996', not 'recorked'. This would explain the relatively modern looking Bordeaux style bottle that Andy pointed out.

Probably Verdelho since that was far and away the most planted variety prephylloxera.

I suspect you may be right, for this reason and the fact the Christies tasting note mentions 'intense acidity' which would be consistent with Verdelho (I don't think it can be Sercial as the tasting note also says 'medium sweet').

The Christies lot and associated tasting note can be found here:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/wine ... 08c8d129f7

[Andy Velebil]

Here's a better question since a few of these have all of a sudden popped up for sale in recent months. Has anyone here ever heard or seen these before? Or does anyone know who on the island did the original bottlings for these and why they all were totally rebottled in what appears to be modern Bordeaux bottles?

FYI there a couple listings in Europe and at least one is the similar bottle/label/etc.

The island isn't that big, and something this old there has to be a record of it or someone there who knows something about it.


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[Paul A.]

Here's a better question since a few of these have all of a sudden popped up for sale in recent months. Has anyone here ever heard or seen these before? Or does anyone know who on the island did the original bottlings for these and why they all were totally rebottled in what appears to be modern Bordeaux bottles?

I've had mine for over a year - was deciding whether to keep them or sell them and decided I'd rather use the funds elsewhere. I know that the Araujo family had a small stash of these and also sold some others to collectors, although I don't know if they were the original source of the bottles that popped up at Christies in December - however it wouldn't surprise me if they were. Unfortunately I don't know why they were all rebottled into Bordeaux style bottles, although it seems likely they were all done at the same time and probably because the original vessels had reached the end of their useful life.

[Andy Velebil]

Here's a better question since a few of these have all of a sudden popped up for sale in recent months. Has anyone here ever heard or seen these before? Or does anyone know who on the island did the original bottlings for these and why they all were totally rebottled in what appears to be modern Bordeaux bottles?

I've had mine for over a year - was deciding whether to keep them or sell them and decided I'd rather use the funds elsewhere. I know that the Araujo family had a small stash of these and also sold some others to collectors, although I don't know if they were the original source of the bottles that popped up at Christies in December - however it wouldn't surprise me if they were. Unfortunately I don't know why they were all rebottled into Bordeaux style bottles, although it seems likely they were all done at the same time and probably because the original vessels had reached the end of their useful life.

Paul,
Lets think about this logically, and I'm not trying to be rude as I've seen weirder things happen. However, when a handful of bottles that appear all of a sudden in a relatively short time that even some Madeira freaks on here haven't heard about (that have come forward anyhow) there are going to be some questions. And I'm referring to yours and the others from Christies and those currently for sale elsewhere.

As to the glass rebottle. A glass bottle generally doesn't "reached the end of their useful life" unless someone breaks it. I've had enough 1800 wines in original bottles to know that they hold up just fine. So why would someone totally rebottle something instead of just recorking it? And why such a generic label for such a modern recork. It's not adding up without some definitive proof, which I hope comes forward.

Again I'll ask, can someone (Roy, Eric I., etc) send some emails out to folks on the Island to find out the back story on these particular bottles.

[Paul A.]

Lets think about this logically, and I'm not trying to be rude as I've seen weirder things happen. However, when a handful of bottles that appear all of a sudden in a relatively short time that even some Madeira freaks on here haven't heard about (that have come forward anyhow) there are going to be some questions. And I'm referring to yours and the others from Christies and those currently for sale elsewhere.

As to the glass rebottle. A glass bottle generally doesn't "reached the end of their useful life" unless someone breaks it. I've had enough 1800 wines in original bottles to know that they hold up just fine. So why would someone totally rebottle something instead of just recorking it? And why such a generic label for such a modern recork. It's not adding up without some definitive proof, which I hope comes forward.

Again I'll ask, can someone (Roy, Eric I., etc) send some emails out to folks on the Island to find out the back story on these particular bottles.

I understand your cynicism especially given the suspicious port/madeira bottles that have popped up at auction elsewhere as highlighted on this forum (although they were better known bottlings and were clearly counterfeited to the extent of having 'dirt' printed on the labels - I think a counterfeiter is more likely to copy the label from a known bottling rather than create a previously unknown bottling using a generic label...)

Christies obviously felt comfortable enough to sell identical bottles at auction (I apply more significance to this than if perhaps Acker had listed them, although sadly it might still not mean that much...) - perhaps they knew enough about the back story to be comfortable, or perhaps they insisted on opening one to test it hence the recently dated tasting note.

What I can say is that I purchased these from a very legitimate source (and I can provide proof of purchase) who have been associated with Madeira for many generations. I don't have answers to your other questions but share the same thirst for information. Hopefully someone more seasoned than me can provide further insight.

[Andy Velebil]

Just an FYI as many people don't know...Christie's knowingly sold fake bottles that came from Rudy K. But lets focus on finding the back story of these old Madeira's. It could be a very interesting one with a long history.

[Glenn E.]

Christies obviously felt comfortable enough to sell identical bottles at auction

That's a pretty low hurdle to clear. "Can we get away with it, and will we make money?" are the only two questions that they'd ask.

[Eric Menchen]

My thinking on the re-bottling is that it might have been done due to fill levels. Maybe there were a bunch of bad corks along with some leakers so that plenty had fill levels in the high shoulder, low shoulder, and maybe lower. Pour them all (or maybe smell and discard a few?) into a grundy and re-bottle. Now you've got a bunch of nice looking bottles with decent fill levels. You probably have a few less bottles, but a very pour fill commands a lot lower price % than the fill %. I'd typically pay 50% at best for a bottle that had lost more than 10%. (And who is to stop you from topping up a little bit to get your original number of bottles?)

But looking at the pictures, the fill on one bottle isn't that great. So maybe that isn't the case at all. Or maybe the fill was decent in 1996, but it has since lost some in the last 20 year.

[Andy Velebil]

My thinking on the re-bottling is that it might have been done due to fill levels. Maybe there were a bunch of bad corks along with some leakers so that plenty had fill levels in the high shoulder, low shoulder, and maybe lower. Pour them all (or maybe smell and discard a few?) into a grundy and re-bottle. Now you've got a bunch of nice looking bottles with decent fill levels. You probably have a few less bottles, but a very pour fill commands a lot lower price % than the fill %. I'd typically pay 50% at best for a bottle that had lost more than 10%. (And who is to stop you from topping up a little bit to get your original number of bottles?)

But looking at the pictures, the fill on one bottle isn't that great. So maybe that isn't the case at all. Or maybe the fill was decent in 1996, but it has since lost some in the last 20 year.

That is part of the bizarre thing. If you were using one or two bottles to top up the others, which is common, you'd still use the original bottles and simply top up and recork. But 20 years later, if that was done, the fills should not be where they are now without signs of seepage. And let me say that all the other pictures are similar fill levels and no obvious signs of seepage. So it appears someone may have been trying to make them look older than they are or that was all they had and bottled them. If there was spillage during re-bottling that would be a serious lack of professionalism in rebottling and would raise other questions. But again, all the bottles have that issue. And if you were rebottling why make a bunch of low fill bottles instead of rebottling and topping them up to normal levels with a "donor" bottle.

There are some red flags with these. Those red flags could be explained if there is a proven back story that comes to light.

[Edward J]

I noticed while checking the other bottles offered that there was a mention of not only a rebottling in 1996 but that...

recorked by o.p brothers 5/2015

I don't know who the O.P. brothers are but I'm sure someone here can find out and track down these bottles.

[Al B.]

So why would someone totally rebottle something instead of just recorking it?

Because the wine was originally being matured in demijohns before being bottled? We know of at least one current port producer who states on his labels that a wine is "bottled in year X and decanted in year Y". It's not a huge leap of imagination to picture the year in which a wine is moved from demijohn to bottle as being the year of "reengarrafado".

Just to be clear, this is only speculation as I don't know the history of this wine, but wanted to point out that there could well be a legitimate reason for the wording on the label.