Which grapes are used for which port variety?

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Thomas V
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Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Thomas V »

I have been asked this questions multiple times by friends and do not posses the knowledge to answer correctly:

"In a harvest year, which grapes are used for the different types of port"

I have just read the great article on the front page of FTLOP about the winemaker at Quinta do Noval and some light is shed on the matter.

So because of beneficio only 50% of a class A vineyard can be used for creation of port as stated by the IVDP. Out of those 50% of the grapes in a vintage year only the best of the best will be used for vintage port. So now comes the part of the question I cannot answer. Of the remaining grapes which are used for Colheita, TWAIOA, LBV and Ruby?

The grapes selected for Colheitas are grapes that have a structure that make them ideal for long term maturation in oak barrels? (And are so outstanding that they shall not be used for TWAIOA)?
The grapes selected for TWAIOA also have a ideal structure for long term maturation in oak, but not the quality that is the trademark of a Colheita?
But TWAIOA are mix of colheita, but a colheita not good enough to be sold as colheita?
Which grapes are then used for LBV and Ruby?

In a year where vintage is not declared, there is naturally the option for making a Single Quinta if the quality at that vineyard is high enough. But if no vintage nor single quinta vintage is declared what are the grapes from the normal "vintage" parcels used for? LBV? Colheita?

Hoping for some clarification.

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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Glenn E. »

The simplest answer is that it varies by producer.

Also, "best" is a relative term, by which I mean that there is not just one "best" grape at harvest. The "best" grape to use for making a Colheita may not be the "best" grape to use for making a Vintage Port, for example. So when someone tells you that the "best" grapes from each harvest are used to make Vintage Port, they're probably only talking about grapes that had the potential to make Vintage Port in the first place. They may also be using their "best" grapes to make Colheita, also... but the best Colheita grapes wouldn't have been used to make Vintage Port anyway, and vice versa.

This is similar to another myth about Port - that Vintage Port is the rarest type of Port because it only accounts for ~2% of sales. That isn't actually true - the rarest is Colheita at ~1% of sales. Most people only think of Ruby Port when they're talking about Port, though, and I think that's why everything is so VP-centric. But back to your questions...

After Vintage Port, most producers put their "next best" grapes into LBV and then after that into Crusted or Ruby Reserve. But at least one producer - Graham's - claims to put their "next best" grapes into their Ruby Reserve, Graham's Six Grapes. Some producers also occasionally make a second label such as Fonseca Guimaraens or Sandeman Vau, though that is normally not done in the same year as a fully declared Vintage Port. Second label or single quinta Vintage Ports likely slot in immediately after fully declared Vintage Port in the "best grapes" heirarchy.

On the Tawny side, these days just about everything is originally produced as Colheita even if it is ultimately blended, bottled, and sold as TWAIOA. This is due to the fact that if it isn't Colheita to begin with, it can never become Colheita. But it's perfectly legal (and normal practice) to blend various Colheitas together to make TWAIOA. So on the Tawny side, all of the grapes go into Colheita to begin with, but only the ones that ultimately age properly to be made into Colheita end up being sold as Colheita. It's difficult to say where there "best" grapes ended up because so much depends on how well they age, and that could come down to which grapes were bottled in the "best" barrel or stored in the "best" corner of the lodge, etc. Furthermore, a barrel that might not taste all that great as a Colheita could be the perfect "mother wine" for an amazing 40-year old TWAIOA. It's very complicated on the Tawny side of things. :-)

In non-vintage years just about anything can happen. The first thing to remember is that premium Port (Reserve or better) is only a small part of overall Port production. In a really "bad" year for Vintage Port like 1993, the producers still make millions of liters of Port. It's just all basic Port with maybe a little bit of Reserve if at least some of the grapes are good enough. But in a reasonably good year like 1995, they'll make either SQVP or a second lable (Fonseca Guimaraens, Sandeman Vau, Noval Silval, et al) and treat everything else like normal. There might be an LBV, there might be a Crusted, and of course there will be plenty of Reserve. Many "off" years for Vintage Port turn into great years for Colheita, too. 1974, 1976, and 1978 all produced superb Colheita surrounding the declared years of 1975 and 1977.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Bradley Bogdan »

Glenn put it perfectly. The only thing I would add is that there is also preference from shipper to shipper on what styles they choose to focus on. A shipper such as Fonseca appears to put their top effort and grapes into their VP, while a house like Kopke seems to focus more on making the best Colheita possible. Someone like S. Leonardo might focus on blended TWAIOAs, but a Quinta like Crasto seems to mostly excel at LBV. So, while there's a broad strokes view of where you put your grapes, it can vary widely from house to house depending on what you'd like to specialize in.


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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Thomas V »

Glenn E. wrote:After Vintage Port, most producers put their "next best" grapes into LBV and then after that into Crusted or Ruby Reserve.
That is strange for me as I thought Crusted port was a mix of vintage port for 1-3 adjacent years. Also Crusted port is often priced in between SQVT and LBV.

Glenn E. wrote:But at least one producer - Graham's - claims to put their "next best" grapes into their Ruby Reserve, Graham's Six Grapes
Is that why you are such a fan of Six Grapes? (Graham's is one of your favourite houses I reckon?)

Glenn E. wrote:Some producers also occasionally make a second label such as Fonseca Guimaraens or Sandeman Vau, though that is normally not done in the same year as a fully declared Vintage Port. Second label or single quinta Vintage Ports likely slot in immediately after fully declared Vintage Port in the "best grapes" heirarchy.
You learn some think new every day. Thanks for the insight. So an example for this is 2013 where Fonseca has made a Guimaraens but no VT. Does Fonseca not have a single quinta?
Glenn E. wrote: On the Tawny side, these days just about everything is originally produced as Colheita even if it is ultimately blended, bottled, and sold as TWAIOA. This is due to the fact that if it isn't Colheita to begin with, it can never become Colheita. But it's perfectly legal (and normal practice) to blend various Colheitas together to make TWAIOA. So on the Tawny side, all of the grapes go into Colheita to begin with, but only the ones that ultimately age properly to be made into Colheita end up being sold as Colheita. It's difficult to say where there "best" grapes ended up because so much depends on how well they age, and that could come down to which grapes were bottled in the "best" barrel or stored in the "best" corner of the lodge, etc. Furthermore, a barrel that might not taste all that great as a Colheita could be the perfect "mother wine" for an amazing 40-year old TWAIOA. It's very complicated on the Tawny side of things. :-)
This makes things so much clear for me. Thank you Mr. Tawny.
Glenn E. wrote: In non-vintage years just about anything can happen. The first thing to remember is that premium Port (Reserve or better) is only a small part of overall Port production. In a really "bad" year for Vintage Port like 1993, the producers still make millions of liters of Port. It's just all basic Port with maybe a little bit of Reserve if at least some of the grapes are good enough. But in a reasonably good year like 1995, they'll make either SQVP or a second lable (Fonseca Guimaraens, Sandeman Vau, Noval Silval, et al) and treat everything else like normal. There might be an LBV, there might be a Crusted, and of course there will be plenty of Reserve. Many "off" years for Vintage Port turn into great years for Colheita, too. 1974, 1976, and 1978 all produced superb Colheita surrounding the declared years of 1975 and 1977.
How can an off year for vintage produce great colheitas? I realize now that not the same grapes would be used as you explained earlier, but the growing conditions for the year would be the same for the different kinds of grape variety right? How come the colheita grapes had a good year in 74' but the VP grapes did not? Or am I missing something.

Thank you again for taking time to answer these questions. Really did make things much clearer for me.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Bradley Bogdan »

Thomas V wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:After Vintage Port, most producers put their "next best" grapes into LBV and then after that into Crusted or Ruby Reserve.
That is strange for me as I thought Crusted port was a mix of vintage port for 1-3 adjacent years. Also Crusted port is often priced in between SQVT and LBV.

Glenn E. wrote:But at least one producer - Graham's - claims to put their "next best" grapes into their Ruby Reserve, Graham's Six Grapes
Is that why you are such a fan of Six Grapes? (Graham's is one of your favourite houses I reckon?)

Glenn E. wrote:Some producers also occasionally make a second label such as Fonseca Guimaraens or Sandeman Vau, though that is normally not done in the same year as a fully declared Vintage Port. Second label or single quinta Vintage Ports likely slot in immediately after fully declared Vintage Port in the "best grapes" heirarchy.
You learn some think new every day. Thanks for the insight. So an example for this is 2013 where Fonseca has made a Guimaraens but no VT. Does Fonseca not have a single quinta?
Glenn E. wrote: On the Tawny side, these days just about everything is originally produced as Colheita even if it is ultimately blended, bottled, and sold as TWAIOA. This is due to the fact that if it isn't Colheita to begin with, it can never become Colheita. But it's perfectly legal (and normal practice) to blend various Colheitas together to make TWAIOA. So on the Tawny side, all of the grapes go into Colheita to begin with, but only the ones that ultimately age properly to be made into Colheita end up being sold as Colheita. It's difficult to say where there "best" grapes ended up because so much depends on how well they age, and that could come down to which grapes were bottled in the "best" barrel or stored in the "best" corner of the lodge, etc. Furthermore, a barrel that might not taste all that great as a Colheita could be the perfect "mother wine" for an amazing 40-year old TWAIOA. It's very complicated on the Tawny side of things. :-)
This makes things so much clear for me. Thank you Mr. Tawny.
Glenn E. wrote: In non-vintage years just about anything can happen. The first thing to remember is that premium Port (Reserve or better) is only a small part of overall Port production. In a really "bad" year for Vintage Port like 1993, the producers still make millions of liters of Port. It's just all basic Port with maybe a little bit of Reserve if at least some of the grapes are good enough. But in a reasonably good year like 1995, they'll make either SQVP or a second lable (Fonseca Guimaraens, Sandeman Vau, Noval Silval, et al) and treat everything else like normal. There might be an LBV, there might be a Crusted, and of course there will be plenty of Reserve. Many "off" years for Vintage Port turn into great years for Colheita, too. 1974, 1976, and 1978 all produced superb Colheita surrounding the declared years of 1975 and 1977.
How can an off year for vintage produce great colheitas? I realize now that not the same grapes would be used as you explained earlier, but the growing conditions for the year would be the same for the different kinds of grape variety right? How come the colheita grapes had a good year in 74' but the VP grapes did not? Or am I missing something.

Thank you again for taking time to answer these questions. Really did make things much clearer for me.
I'll take a stab at your questions on the Guimarens and the Colheitas.

First off, many (most?) VPs from top years are a blend of the best fruit from the producer's home Quinta, as well as fruit from small growers elsewhere in the Douro, usually sourced on long term contracts. Fonseca does bottle a true SQVP from Panascal, it's Quinta, in some years, but seems to emphasize Guimarens, which is a blend of grapes from Panascal and other growers, just like the flagship VP would be. Noval does a similar thing with Silval, using only purchased grapes in that instance, but still striving for a VP quality offering in what usually isn't a VP year. Basically, it's a choice by the shipper as to what shows off their stuff best: Just the best fruit from the home vineyard, or a blend (or all) of stuff from their contracted vineyards.

As for the Colheita question, grapes change and age differently depending on their physiological characteristics when picked. For instance, an overripe grape might produce a stunningly fruity Port initially, but then fail to have the tannin for any aging. Conversely, an underripe grape might be high in acid and low in fruit, and produce a very fresh young Port, but not necessarily a pleasing one. Usually, the best long barrel aging requires a Port that is lower in tannin, but close to other aspects of ripeness, than is normal for VP. That usually means off years are better, but not always.

Think of it much like Champagne. There, they purposefully pick grapes that are underripe to make better bubbly, but if you made those same underripe grapes into a normal table wine, it'd be awful.

If you're not a subscriber yet, I recommend you do so you can look back into the newsletter archive. There was a question for the trade maybe a year or two ago asking them exactly what makes prime growing conditions/ripeness for good tawny. There were some very insightful answers.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Glenn E. »

Thomas V wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:After Vintage Port, most producers put their "next best" grapes into LBV and then after that into Crusted or Ruby Reserve.
That is strange for me as I thought Crusted port was a mix of vintage port for 1-3 adjacent years. Also Crusted port is often priced in between SQVT and LBV.
It is, typically. Crusted Port starts to get into the confusion/complication of Tawnies, though. Something that was registered as a VP but just isn't maturing well enough to actually be released might be blended together with other wines in the same situation to make a Crusted. Or if noticed in time, it might be kept in cask for a couple more years and released as an LBV. The producers have quite a few options as the wines are developing.

Thomas V wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:But at least one producer - Graham's - claims to put their "next best" grapes into their Ruby Reserve, Graham's Six Grapes
Is that why you are such a fan of Six Grapes? (Graham's is one of your favourite houses I reckon?)
I'm a huge fan of Graham, but I don't drink that much Six Grapes. It's a very nice Ruby Reserve... I just don't drink that much Ruby Reserve.

Oddly enough, when we held the Ruby Reserve Taste-Off, the original intent was to compare Six Grapes with Noval Black to see which was the best Ruby Reserve. They both finished middle of the pack, and Taylor's First Estate was the run-away winner. Strange things happen when you do a blind taste test!
Thomas V wrote:
Glenn E. wrote: In non-vintage years just about anything can happen. The first thing to remember is that premium Port (Reserve or better) is only a small part of overall Port production. In a really "bad" year for Vintage Port like 1993, the producers still make millions of liters of Port. It's just all basic Port with maybe a little bit of Reserve if at least some of the grapes are good enough. But in a reasonably good year like 1995, they'll make either SQVP or a second lable (Fonseca Guimaraens, Sandeman Vau, Noval Silval, et al) and treat everything else like normal. There might be an LBV, there might be a Crusted, and of course there will be plenty of Reserve. Many "off" years for Vintage Port turn into great years for Colheita, too. 1974, 1976, and 1978 all produced superb Colheita surrounding the declared years of 1975 and 1977.
How can an off year for vintage produce great colheitas? I realize now that not the same grapes would be used as you explained earlier, but the growing conditions for the year would be the same for the different kinds of grape variety right? How come the colheita grapes had a good year in 74' but the VP grapes did not? Or am I missing something.
As Brad mentioned, the grapes needed to make a good Colheita are slightly different than the grapes needed to make a good VP. (Part of the reason that the whole concept of "best grapes go into VP" isn't nearly that clear-cut.) Colheitas don't really need tannins or color, but they do need really good acidity. VP has to have the tannins, though, or it won't age properly. So you might have a year where the grapes just aren't developing the proper tannins to make a long-lived VP, but have fantastic acidity and so can be made into an amazing Colheita.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Andy Velebil »

To chime in on the Crusted Port topic. This is a land mine topic in that there is no simple or easy answer to how they are made. Some producers use a single vintage, and some more. The vintage listed is the year it was bottled and not the actual year the grapes were grown. Crusted was known as the "poor man's Port" back in the old days, prior to LBV's being what they are now. Earlier maturing and typically made from lesser year(s) and/or grapes not earmarked for their top VP. I like to think of Crusted Ports as the "trash can" Port. That is, whatever is left over from VP and of good enough but not great quality can be used to make a decent Crusted. There are so many variables on how these can be made it's impossible to give specifics unless speaking about a specific producer.

There is a reason why you don't see many Crusted Ports these days, with the advent of modern Unfiltered LBV's there is no need for them. IMO, it's a category that should be relegated to the history books and done away with.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Eric Menchen »

Glenn E. wrote:Some producers also occasionally make a second label such as Fonseca Guimaraens or Sandeman Vau, though that is normally not done in the same year as a fully declared Vintage Port.
I regularly see Fonseca Guimaraens for "off" years, but I can't say they same for Sandeman Vau or Noval Silval. A quick check for Sandeman Vau on wine-searcher (free version), lists:
1996 1997 1999 2000 2001 2003 2011
So that's three off years, four generally declared years. A search for Noval Silval gives:
1920 1983 1995 1998 2000 2002 2005 2012
NV 1966 1984 1997 1999 2001 2003 2007
There are non-generally declared years there, but most of the recent generally declared years are there too. And for Noval, they also made Quinta do Noval VP in a bunch of those non-generally declared years as well, e.g. 2012.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Al B. »

Andy Velebil wrote:There is a reason why you don't see many Crusted Ports these days, with the advent of modern Unfiltered LBV's there is no need for them. IMO, it's a category that should be relegated to the history books and done away with.
I don't agree. With colheita ports, if you want to blend different vintages, you can do so and make a tawny with indication of age.

Crusted is the equivalent. It's the top quality port that can be made by blending different vintages of ruby ports. Of course, ruby and ruby reserve could also be blends across different years but these would normally not be of the same quality as a crusted port.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Al B. wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:There is a reason why you don't see many Crusted Ports these days, with the advent of modern Unfiltered LBV's there is no need for them. IMO, it's a category that should be relegated to the history books and done away with.
I don't agree. With colheita ports, if you want to blend different vintages, you can do so and make a tawny with indication of age.

Crusted is the equivalent. It's the top quality port that can be made by blending different vintages of ruby ports. Of course, ruby and ruby reserve could also be blends across different years but these would normally not be of the same quality as a crusted port.
For the sake of that argument, back in the old days you didn't have the level of SQVP's as one has now. Crusted helped fill in between classic years. You had Crusted because they could pick small amounts of the best lots from off or even classic year to blend with to make a decent VP. With modern wine making techiques it's rare that a off year doesn't produce a least a decent SQVP or a blend such as Guimaraens.

I think they were the perfect go to at the time, but time has passed their usefulness by.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Thomas V »

Old topic, but the question that popped into a discussion with a port friend seems to fit in here.

I seem to recall reading somewhere here on the forum that it is allowed / or common practise to blend some amount of adjacent vintages into for example a colheita. So if you wanted to make say 1996 you could mix in some 1995 and 1997. Some also mix in some white colheita as well?

Is this also a practise used for vintage port? (This was the debate I had). Is it legal to mix in a minor amount of an adjacent vintage into a VP? I have not seen this mentioned anywhere. That does not mean it does not happen though :)
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Thomas V wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:27 pm Old topic, but the question that popped into a discussion with a port friend seems to fit in here.

I seem to recall reading somewhere here on the forum that it is allowed / or common practise to blend some amount of adjacent vintages into for example a colheita. So if you wanted to make say 1996 you could mix in some 1995 and 1997. Some also mix in some white colheita as well?

Is this also a practise used for vintage port? (This was the debate I had). Is it legal to mix in a minor amount of an adjacent vintage into a VP? I have not seen this mentioned anywhere. That does not mean it does not happen though :)
There is no regulation that says one has to use the same exact tawny to top up a barrel of Tawny. So yes, one could add a bit of a different vintage or other Port in to the barrel/vat/or whatever it's being held in.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, there isn't a regulation that says you can't add a little white tawny into the a red. It is permissible, and often practiced, to mix white and red grapes during the crush/fermentation. And it's important to remember those old field blends often contained some white vines that were all picked and fermented at the same time.

For VP, I am not aware of anyone mixing in a white "ruby" style of Port into it after fermentation is complete. But keep in mind my old field blend comment above. So, while not added in later the VP could have a small amount white grapes used in it from the start.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Glenn E. »

Andy Velebil wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:46 am
Thomas V wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:27 pm Old topic, but the question that popped into a discussion with a port friend seems to fit in here.

I seem to recall reading somewhere here on the forum that it is allowed / or common practise to blend some amount of adjacent vintages into for example a colheita. So if you wanted to make say 1996 you could mix in some 1995 and 1997. Some also mix in some white colheita as well?

Is this also a practise used for vintage port? (This was the debate I had). Is it legal to mix in a minor amount of an adjacent vintage into a VP? I have not seen this mentioned anywhere. That does not mean it does not happen though :)
There is no regulation that says one has to use the same exact tawny to top up a barrel of Tawny. So yes, one could add a bit of a different vintage or other Port in to the barrel/vat/or whatever it's being held in.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, there isn't a regulation that says you can't add a little white tawny into the a red. It is permissible, and often practiced, to mix white and red grapes during the crush/fermentation. And it's important to remember those old field blends often contained some white vines that were all picked and fermented at the same time.

For VP, I am not aware of anyone mixing in a white "ruby" style of Port into it after fermentation is complete. But keep in mind my old field blend comment above. So, while not added in later the VP could have a small amount white grapes used in it from the start.
I would have to go back and do more research again, but to your first point Andy I don't think there's any regulation that says you are allowed to "top up" a barrel of Tawny. Year-dated Ports are supposed to be 100% from the year listed, not blended slowly over the years with younger wine. That would be a Solera, which isn't a legal category for Port. Note that I'm not saying that it never happens, just that it isn't legal as near as I can tell. If there's a "topping up" regulation somewhere that allows other wine to be used in the process I'd love to see it, because I've missed it to this point.

To the white/red point, I believe that you are correct. The regulations say virtually nothing about the type(s) of grapes that can be used to make the various categories of Port. In fact the only regulation that I can specifically remember that mentions whites vs reds is the one that lists all of the grape varieties that are approved for use in the making of Port. And that regulation says nothing about which categories of Port that the grapes can be used to make, just that they are approved to be used to make Port.

The only regulation that I can think of that might be stopping people from making "white vintage" Port is the fact that you still have to get it approved by the IVDP. So while I cannot think of any regulation that says you cannot use white grapes to make Vintage Port, that may be a moot point because you may not be able to get it approved by the IVDP due to it not matching their organoleptic expectations for a Vintage Port.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Eric Ifune »

And it is the IVDP which determines if the color is correct for it's category, so if some white grapes make it into the mix, but the color is still OK, then it's allowed.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Eric Menchen »

Thomas V wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:27 pm I seem to recall reading somewhere here on the forum that it is allowed / or common practise to blend some amount of adjacent vintages into for example a colheita. So if you wanted to make say 1996 you could mix in some 1995 and 1997. Some also mix in some white colheita as well?
From my reading of the regulation, for a Colheita, it all needs to come from the same year.
http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/legislacao/213.pdf,
1 — «Vinho do Porto com data de colheita» — vinho do Porto,tinto ou branco, com características organolépticas de elevada qua-lidade e proveniente de uma só vindima, com estágio em madeiradurante um período mínimo de sete anos após a vindima e reconhecidopelo IVDP com direito ao uso da indicação nos termos dos númerosseguintes.
provenientede uma só vindima = from a single vintage

And you'll find the same wording in the article for VP.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that is the regulation.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Glenn E. »

Eric Menchen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:04 am From my reading of the regulation, for a Colheita, it all needs to come from the same year.
http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/legislacao/213.pdf,
1 — «Vinho do Porto com data de colheita» — vinho do Porto,tinto ou branco, com características organolépticas de elevada qua-lidade e proveniente de uma só vindima, com estágio em madeiradurante um período mínimo de sete anos após a vindima e reconhecidopelo IVDP com direito ao uso da indicação nos termos dos númerosseguintes.
provenientede uma só vindima = from a single vintage

And you'll find the same wording in the article for VP.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that is the regulation.
That's my reading as well. The phrase you highlighted is even more specific as I read it, saying somewhat more literally "[and] coming from only one vintage." This particular regulation is quite clear that it all has to be from the same year, and I'm not aware of any other that creates a "topping up" loophole.

I suspect this is part of the reason for the new "very old" Port categories. There's a lot of very old Port in the Douro for which the Producers cannot prove authenticity, therefore the only use for it was as a blending component in 40 YO TWAIOA. And some of those are getting so old that they're almost too old for a 40YO, so the producers really wanted to be able to do something else with them. (I'm sure the fact that they're extremely valuable when sold stand alone also played into the calculation.) But the IVDP didn't want to have to come up with características organolépticas for a zillion new age categories, so they just gave up and lumped them all together and Very Old Tawny Port is now a thing.
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Eric Menchen
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Eric Menchen »

Glenn E. wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:57 am That's my reading as well. The phrase you highlighted is even more specific as I read it, saying somewhat more literally "[and] coming from only one vintage."
Yes, I believe you are correct. Google translate didn't bother with which means only.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Andy Velebil »

To clarify. A lot of old tawny’s were never registered when the IVP (now IVDP) came into existence. There was a window to register your stocks back in the 1930’s.

Many people didn’t register them because why would they. Old Tawny was not exactly the big seller it is today. So there was little reason for a lot of people to do so. And that is one reason there is a lot of unregistered very old tawny’s.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Thomas V »

Ahh great stuff. Lots of information here from you guys. Thanks.

Seems very clear based on the ivdp rules you linked to, that it isn't allowed to mix vintages in both VP and Colheita, as expected. But what goes on in the blending rooms is another matter :)

The white port thing was more of a side note as I know for instance that Blackett uses white port in their 10 YO Tawny.
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Re: Which grapes are used for which port variety?

Post by Scheiny S »

Glenn E. wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:57 am
Eric Menchen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:04 am From my reading of the regulation, for a Colheita, it all needs to come from the same year.
http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/legislacao/213.pdf,
1 — «Vinho do Porto com data de colheita» — vinho do Porto,tinto ou branco, com características organolépticas de elevada qua-lidade e proveniente de uma só vindima, com estágio em madeiradurante um período mínimo de sete anos após a vindima e reconhecidopelo IVDP com direito ao uso da indicação nos termos dos númerosseguintes.
provenientede uma só vindima = from a single vintage

And you'll find the same wording in the article for VP.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but that is the regulation.
That's my reading as well. The phrase you highlighted is even more specific as I read it, saying somewhat more literally "[and] coming from only one vintage." This particular regulation is quite clear that it all has to be from the same year, and I'm not aware of any other that creates a "topping up" loophole.

I suspect this is part of the reason for the new "very old" Port categories. There's a lot of very old Port in the Douro for which the Producers cannot prove authenticity, therefore the only use for it was as a blending component in 40 YO TWAIOA. And some of those are getting so old that they're almost too old for a 40YO, so the producers really wanted to be able to do something else with them. (I'm sure the fact that they're extremely valuable when sold stand alone also played into the calculation.) But the IVDP didn't want to have to come up with características organolépticas for a zillion new age categories, so they just gave up and lumped them all together and Very Old Tawny Port is now a thing.
I've been wondering what the heck "Very Old" meant. Is something similar happening for Madeira? I think I've seen that.
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