2017 and the harvest

[Andy Velebil]

As a spin off for the 2015 vs. 2016 thread, curious as to what people have heard about 2017?

I've heard the super early harvest was not a good thing in general. Issues with phenological ripeness. Has anyone heard anything else, Good, bad, or otherwise?

[Eric Menchen]

I did hear a comment or two about raisins on the vines, even with the early harvest. That's not a good thing. But the juice coming out of the press and in the lagars at Quinta do Portal was quite tasty. I saw some bunches to skip in their vineyards, but some good fruit too that was still being harvested pretty late (around 27 Sep).

[Jasper A.]

As a spin off for the 2015 vs. 2016 thread, curious as to what people have heard about 2017?

I've heard the super early harvest was not a good thing in general. Issues with phenological ripeness. Has anyone heard anything else, Good, bad, or otherwise?

I was at Niepoort during at the end of the harvest, and the colour and power of the juice was amazing. I treaded the Bioma in the lagar
I head from a few sources that there is resemblance with the 1945 harvest, and it has the potential to be better then 2016. But we have to wait.

[Roy Hersh]

Yep, I saw over 20 producers in Douro, another 4 in Gaia and met with 9 others in person for lunch or dinner in Porto during harvest time and between PHT1 and PHT2. The vast majority seemed bullish on 2017, for their own properties, but nobody knows what it takes to be a generally declared year anymore. The jury is still out on 2016 and several mentioned they would not be declaring that vintage regardless. Easier said than done, imo. There is now a groundswell for a generally declared vintage, regardless of whether it will be 2016 or 2017, from a financial standpoint. 2011 was a long time ago.

Almost everyone agrees that extraction levels were practically record setting for the insanely dark colors in 2017. But there were some challenges with extreme temperatures and water levels. Ripeness was never a question, but balance could be. The physiological ripeness did not catch up with RS levels (up river and some in the Cima Corgo too) may be THE bigger question with 2017.

Surprising how nearly black some lagares looked when full. When I asked a winemaker that is one of the leading voices in the Port trade (no, not Dirk ) he gave the funniest answer of all. (closely paraphrased ...) "Those that were quick to jump on 2016 may be put in a bit of a pickle if 2017 turns out as many are predicting. Maybe they use a bit of 2017 to enrich their 2016's." I said, that's illegal in the eyes of the IVDP, right? He just winked.

While 2017, imo, will not be good for Douro wines, I have a strong feeling that it will be at least worthy of SQVPs and more than likely there will be a bunch of people declaring it. I do not expect that it will knock off 2016 as the general declaration though. But after 2015, I am not going all in. #7 is more typical than #6 historically for the last digit of the year when it comes to VP.

[Roy Hersh]

One thing I did not put in my 2015 article, but will share here. My wife (was given a great honor) and was seated between the head of the IVDP and the Chancellor of the Confraria (George Sandeman). At one point I asked her to please change seats with me for a little bit, as I had been seated between both of their wives, on the complete opposite side of the table, during this year's Confraria ceremonial dinner. Music was playing throughout the night and it was not easy to converse or hear across the table. Many FTLOP'ers were in the room, both Forum users and a lot of overseas subscribers that never show up here, but do so on social media that FTLOP participates in widely.

I knew George Sandeman's view on 2015 as we had previously spoken on this topic. But I did want to hear what the other gentleman thought and so, I mentioned directly:
'The growing conditions of 2015 appeared to me to be considerably more favorable than 2016 overall, 2015 had two days of rain mid-harvest, with sun and wind to prevent further rot and tons of rain before the growing season began. 2016 had a full week of rain in the midst of harvest and picking stopped for quite a while and there was no real wind, just warm days and lots of people have relayed that a great deal of bunches had rot or at least some mold, (except in the Douro Superior.) That on the heels of 5-7 sulfur treatments during the growing season of 2016.' He just nodded his head. Then more directly, I said, "I've been tasting through more than 4 dozen of the 2015's and in reality there is NO good reason that 2015 shouldn't have been generally declared, and that is a fairly widely held belief beyond the 4 companies that have bet on 2016 instead. Why wasn't 2015 generally declared, in your opinion?' (I realized the IVDP had no say in that decision, but ... ). He looked at me seriously, and stated without a blink: "Roy, these things are complicated. To answer your question, you must realize there are commercial realities." That was it. I waited for him to elaborate, but that was the entirety of his response. I realize that a follow up question would be viewed as impolite considering the occasion and venue. But I had my answer, and have thought about that a lot, ever since.

[Tom Archer]

With hindsight, perhaps they should have declared 2013 - good enough IMO - but not needed at the time..

The question of the next declaration is turning into quite a dilemma, but my gut instinct suggests '17 might be the better choice, as the trade can rally round that vintage and show unity in a manner that would be difficult otherwise..

We shall see!

[Tom Archer]

An interesting email from the front line this morning..

There is an expectation that the British port houses are readying to declare 2016, whilst the Portuguese camp are readying to major on 2017, confident that it will prove the superior year.

Although several Portuguese producers will declare both years, at least one major name will NOT be declaring 2016..

[Andy Velebil]

An interesting email from the front line this morning..

There is an expectation that the British port houses are readying to declare 2016, whilst the Portuguese camp are readying to major on 2017, confident that it will prove the superior year.

Although several Portuguese producers will declare both years, at least one major name will NOT be declaring 2016..

2016 seemed a sure bet since the Brit's skipped 2015. More importantly, I'm still really curious as to how 2017 will turn out in the longer run. With such an early ripening harvest one really has to wonder if enough truly got phenologically ripe or not before they had to pick it.

[Frederick Blais]

An interesting email from the front line this morning..

There is an expectation that the British port houses are readying to declare 2016, whilst the Portuguese camp are readying to major on 2017, confident that it will prove the superior year.

Although several Portuguese producers will declare both years, at least one major name will NOT be declaring 2016..

2016 seemed a sure bet since the Brit's skipped 2015. More importantly, I'm still really curious as to how 2017 will turn out in the longer run. With such an early ripening harvest one really has to wonder if enough truly got phenologically ripe or not before they had to pick it.

You can wait a lot in the Douro to pick ripe berries. In 2013, some grapes got picked in November. 2017 was exceptionnal, by the fact that most of the Northen exposition vineyards got pick before the Southern ones. Because of hydric stress on the South ones. But then, when temperatures goes down and a litte bit of rain comes into play, everything resumes pecfectly. There was plenty of time to harvest enough ripe grapes. 2017 was also a year where old vines could tolerate more the hydric stress, so those who keeps them could definitively get better results.

On the other hand, 2016 was a late ripening harvest with rain towards the end, it was definitively more challenging to harvest proper grapes. I perfectly believe some great Ports can be made from 2016, as in almost every year nowadays, but if you ask me, as a general opinion, definitively the quality and the quantity for a general declaration was easier to achieve in 2015 or 2017.

[Tom Archer]

More importantly, I'm still really curious as to how 2017 will turn out in the longer run.

Time will tell.

The Portuguese tend to rave over 'fruit bomb' ports whilst the British tend to favour depth and intensity, so when I hear that the vintages are 'both very good, but very different' and also that the Portuguese favour the 17s, one begins to draw conclusions.

Except that is, until I heard Dirk's most recent comment. Now Dirk thinks the British shippers have gone soft on their values, and thinks the best ports are those with even greater depth and intensity, so when he describes the 17s (and not just his own) as 'amazing' - one begins to wonder..

The two vintages could hardly be more different in terms of harvest timing - the first went on forever, the second indecently early. Neither came close to a textbook optimum, so we'll just have to make our minds up when we get to taste them.

I do hope though, that we are not about to see a repeat of the mistake made 25 years ago, when impatience for a declaration after a gap of six years prompted the majority to opt for 1991, when 1992 was actually the better year..

[Frederick Blais]

I don't know how much information I'm allowed to give here, but I can surely say I've tasted Niepoort 2017 vintage blends and there are amazing stuffs there. It will be a difficult decision to select only the best of the best! Look forward for a high quality LBV as well.

About that thing you mention Tom

The Portuguese tend to rave over 'fruit bomb' ports whilst the British tend to favour depth and intensity

. Beside Fladgate houses, I don't see many houses that have remain consistent in their style over the last 40 years.... The rush for Touriga Nacional and Douro superior, bloc planting, single varietal fermentation, stainless steel aging, the success of 85 and 94 on the American market uppon release, all these elements had a major impact on the standardisation of taste among many houses.

[Tom Archer]

The rush for Touriga Nacional and Douro superior, bloc planting, single varietal fermentation, stainless steel aging

Whenever people in the port trade try to be clever, they usually end up regretting it..

How long did it take for people to realise that the higher yielding clones of TN were not quite as good as the TN of old?

As for the Douro Superior, as long as there are still legions of French grannies drinking their afternoon tots of paint-stripper grade tawny, then fine; but I know producers who quite seriously argue for that region to be removed entirely from the demarcated area. That said, there are some good quintas that are in that area, but also a lot of also-rans.

Bloc planting had all the scientific logic behind it - a single bloc of the same species of vine on a steady gradient and all with the same aspect - the harvest timing could then be optimised. The problem being that the very best ports don't respect that logic, and seem to result from a heady mix of mostly ripe grapes mixed with some under-ripe and some overripe - the consequence of field mixes of different varieties.

Stainless steel has a lot of uses, and for storing standard ports prior to bottling it is ideal. But the relatively recent practice of keeping vintage stocks entirely free of wood contact prior to bottling is (I think..) playing with fire..

[Eric Ifune]

I'm all for some estates to push boundaries. Innovation is not always a bad thing. But as long as some places remain doggedly traditional, then we can judge is any particular change is worthwhile.

[Roy Hersh]

Some off the record chatter by a few of those that had planned to declare 2016, as per their comments last year when leaving 2015 to their SQVPs. Now it seems that there may be some surprise and at least one major house is v. seriously considering moving forth with 2017 instead.

We'll know soon enough. Samples of 2017 VPs are currently being sent in to the IVDP. Nobody is talking about approvals though. Lots to still consider.

A few were willing to mention their excitement with having both 2015 and potentially the 2017 declaration as well.

[Tom Archer]

Roy wrote, March 15th:

Now it seems that there may be some surprise and at least one major house is v. seriously considering moving forth with 2017 instead

I wrote, March 12th:

at least one major name will NOT be declaring 2016

You heard it here first!

[Andy Velebil]

So lets call this like it is. We've hit the turning point in the Port trade where the "Classic Declaration" is starting to fade away. The Douro is so big and spread out with so many micro-climates that even in not so good years someone always tends to make an outstanding product.

[Al B.]

As for the Douro Superior, as long as there are still legions of French grannies drinking their afternoon tots of paint-stripper grade tawny, then fine; but I know producers who quite seriously argue for that region to be removed entirely from the demarcated area. That said, there are some good quintas that are in that area, but also a lot of also-rans.

Tom - surely you mean the Baixo Corgo. Douro Superior is where many of the finest quintas lie - Vargellas, Vesuvio, Senhora da Ribeira, Ervamoira etc. Baixo Corgo is the wetter, cooler sub-region further downriver.

[Tom Archer]

Tom - surely you mean the Baixo Corgo. Douro Superior is where many of the finest quintas lie - Vargellas, Vesuvio, Senhora da Ribeira, Ervamoira etc. Baixo Corgo is the wetter, cooler sub-region further downriver.

I was surprised when I heard it and double checked, but it was definitely the Superior.

The gist of the argument seems to be that the demarcated area is far larger than that needed for port production, and that the push towards Douro table wines is only half a solution because the terrain is very labour intensive to work, the vineyard labour is itself getting expensive, and the global competition for quality wines gets fiercer every year. Therefore, goes the argument, shrink the region; ideally down to just the Cima Corgo, but first off, lose the Superior.

OK, that's probably an extravagant opening pitch, with the expectation of a compromise. The boundaries of the sub regions also seem to vary depending on which map you look at; whilst most put Vargellas in the Superior, this one puts it in the Cima Corgo:

http://www.decanter.com/features/the-di ... ir-245620/

[Frederick Blais]

Douro got extented to the extent of the shist geoligical area. Is Douro Superior worth including, totally! Same as Baixo Corgo. In the end, it always fall down to knowing your viticulture. Remember that Douro and Port has always been about this land of contrast and unlimited micro climate. So you can blend all this and make an amazing and complex wine called Port.

If you do the same viticulture management in Baixo Corgo as you do in Douro Superior, it is a mistake.
If you want to do jammy wines and Port in Douro Superior, it is much easier than in Baixo Corgo.

But it is still possible to make super fresh and classic wines/Port from Douro Superior. Vargellas for example is always super fresh while Vesusio next door is more jammier. Some of the best whites vineyards come from 500+ meters vineyards in Douro Superior.

Same goes for Baixo Corgo, you can plant a ton of Touriga Nacional, harvest later, and do Douro Superior style of wines... Yet still you can make some fresh and classic style Port and wines.

Not everything has to be Vintage quality stuff. You don't want that type of vineyards to make Tawnys or dry wines. So again it comes down to knowing your viticulture, chosing the best location and vineyards for the style of wines/port you want to make. Douro has everythning for everyone. Exempting a sub-region because it is too easy to make the style of wine or Port you don't want to drink is not a solution in my opinion. In the end, the market asked for this and vast majority of producers are making wines for the market before wines that they like or wines that respect traditions.

[Glenn E.]

The boundaries of the sub regions also seem to vary depending on which map you look at; whilst most put Vargellas in the Superior, this one puts it in the Cima Corgo:

http://www.decanter.com/features/the-di ... ir-245620/

Vargellas is in the Douro Superior. Even allowing for some artistic misrepresentation, that map is horribly wrong. Vargellas is significantly east of where it is located on that map. What that map shows as Vargellas is closer to Quevedo's Vale d'Agodinho.