Are you thinking of retiring to Portugal?

[Glenn E.]

i'd go for right next to Bomfim. right in the middle

If I had 2.2M Euros, I wouldn't need to retire in Portugal!

[Bert VD]

that's where i went wrong in this topic. none of those properties are for retirement

[Alan McDonald]

i'd go for right next to Bomfim. right in the middle

If I had 2.2M Euros, I wouldn't need to retire in Portugal!

Well said.

[Christian Gollnick]

i'd go for right next to Bomfim. right in the middle

If I had 2.2M Euros, I wouldn't need to retire in Portugal!

That sentence might be true... however, in my case it will be followed by the sentence "Even if I would win the Mega Million Jackpot I still would WANT to retire in Portugal."

Whoever decides to retire in Portugal will find me there in a few years.
If you want to buy property, I wouldn't go through any English-language web-page... you don't want to pay the gringo-prices. Instead you take a few weeks vacation, you drive around, find a village/town that you like and go to a few of the typical local cafes. Start talking to the people, tell them you love Portugal... and suddenly they will let you know that they have a cousin/aunt/brother that is looking to sell a nice property...
All the real-estate-hype is still mostly happening in Porto and Lisbon - but in the Douro Valley you can still find some very nice places at very reasonable prices. Just be friendly to the people there.... be open-minded.

For fun, I bought 2 years ago a piece of land near Sao Joao de Pesqueira - a "mortorio" - a tiny former vineyard that was neglected since the phylloxera. 2800 square meter (30,000 square feet) with 13 old olive trees and 3 fig trees... and it cost me less than USD 2,000.
I found a farmer that is doing the harvesting for me - and we share the olive oil that he produces with the olives in the local cooperative.

It feels great to own a part of the Douro Valley... :)

Can't wait to move to Portugal... :)

As I always say: Mentally I am prepared for retirement - financially not...

[Mike K.]

For fun, I bought 2 years ago a piece of land near Sao Joao de Pesqueira - a "mortorio" - a tiny former vineyard that was neglected since the phylloxera. 2800 square meter (30,000 square feet) with 13 old olive trees and 3 fig trees... and it cost me less than USD 2,000.
I found a farmer that is doing the harvesting for me - and we share the olive oil that he produces with the olives in the local cooperative.

It feels great to own a part of the Douro Valley... :)

Can't wait to move to Portugal... :)

As I always say: Mentally I am prepared for retirement - financially not...

Thank you for your post Christian, you've caused me to do a bit of day dreaming today!

Would owning a medium size olive vineyard (or any other crop) generate enough profit to live a modest but comfortable lifestyle there?

[Christian Gollnick]

Hi Mike - day dreaming is good and keeps us sane...

Portugal is a bad place to earn money - without having much knowledge I would say it is very difficult to make money with farming... There are many families that have been growing wines and olives for generations... and they have problems to make ends meet. They have the experience and still struggle financially... so I am afraid if I come with no experience then it will be even more difficult for me to make money.

However, I must confess that I also thought about growing olives in way larger numbers... but then I don't believe that the Douro Valley is the right place to do so... while the quality might be outstanding, the harvesting is very labor-intensive due to the inclination of the hills... The Alentejo might be a better place, because it's flat and you can use machines...

My personal plan is to move to Portugal in 6 years... and I really want to make some wine and have my fruit-trees... but I am sure I will rather have this as a money-losing hobby than as a way to add income to my retirement funds...

Earn your money outside of Portugal... and then you move there and spend your income...
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/p ... rtugal.asp

Here is a quick overview of the price for the basic necessities... but I think these numbers are too low...:
https://wageindicator.org/salary/living ... overview-1

[Mike K.]

Earn your money outside of Portugal... and then you move there and spend your income...
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/p ... rtugal.asp

Here is a quick overview of the price for the basic necessities... but I think these numbers are too low...:
https://wageindicator.org/salary/living ... overview-1

Christian,

Thank you for your thoughts and the great links.

Regarding making a living in Portugal, your thoughts aligned with my suspicions, but I had to ask :)
I could certainly do some contract work in my current line of business, but that's only half the fun of fully immersing yourself in the new culture.

Cheers!

[Alan McDonald]

i'd go for right next to Bomfim. right in the middle

If I had 2.2M Euros, I wouldn't need to retire in Portugal!

That sentence might be true... however, in my case it will be followed by the sentence "Even if I would win the Mega Million Jackpot I still would WANT to retire in Portugal."

Whoever decides to retire in Portugal will find me there in a few years.
If you want to buy property, I wouldn't go through any English-language web-page... you don't want to pay the gringo-prices. Instead you take a few weeks vacation, you drive around, find a village/town that you like and go to a few of the typical local cafes. Start talking to the people, tell them you love Portugal... and suddenly they will let you know that they have a cousin/aunt/brother that is looking to sell a nice property...
All the real-estate-hype is still mostly happening in Porto and Lisbon - but in the Douro Valley you can still find some very nice places at very reasonable prices. Just be friendly to the people there.... be open-minded.

For fun, I bought 2 years ago a piece of land near Sao Joao de Pesqueira - a "mortorio" - a tiny former vineyard that was neglected since the phylloxera. 2800 square meter (30,000 square feet) with 13 old olive trees and 3 fig trees... and it cost me less than USD 2,000.
I found a farmer that is doing the harvesting for me - and we share the olive oil that he produces with the olives in the local cooperative.

It feels great to own a part of the Douro Valley... :)

Can't wait to move to Portugal... :)

As I always say: Mentally I am prepared for retirement - financially not...

I find your remarks quite insulting. After much research of properties on the market; ones that had been sold; talking to estate agents and people who had recently purchased or were looking for properties, I decided on what I believe to be a realistic price for my property and other assets. Yet you insult me by saying that web pages such as mine show “gringo” prices - by which you obviously mean prices that are far too high and aimed at foreigners. So, what valuation would you put on my property and its inclusions?

By excluding English language sites you are missing virtually everywhere that is advertised for sale. It is so easy for agents to have their listed properties described in several languages, particularly English as it is so widely spoken, and they do it. Naturally people look for their own language rather than having to decipher Portuguese.

Of course you will find people in any drinking hole anywhere in the world that has “just what you are looking for”. It does not matter whether it is a house, land, car, boat, horse or anything else. In Portugal, I am sure you could just stop a random person on the street and find they know of property for sale. I get the general impression that half of the country is for sale at any given time. I am aware of numerous plots of land within a few miles of me that are available. They are not all advertised because that costs money, and many of the plots are of very low value. Estate agents also claim exclusive right to selling for long periods of time, and their commission is expensive too.

[Alan McDonald]

Would owning a medium size olive vineyard (or any other crop) generate enough profit to live a modest but comfortable lifestyle there?

Farming is not a way to make a living, but a way of living. A lot depends on what you mean by “medium size” and how much you think you need for a modest comfortable lifestyle. You followed up on my post last September where I said that $US1500 a month would let a couple live very well. I stick by that amount.

How you acquire that $1500 is your business, and no need to discuss it with the rest of us. It is always easier to reduce expenditure than increase income, and the best way to do that in my extremely long experience of farming in several different countries is to operate an agricultural business. Many things you buy/consume as day to day necessities are legitimate expenses if you live on the farm. Some quick examples – I pay no property taxes because of the historical situation regarding this house and land (other places are not so fortunate); clothing; my vehicle expenses are totally tax deductible, including reclaiming IVA (value added tax) of 23% on most things connected to it, especially fuel; similarly I reclaim IVA on many purchases of goods and services as well as them being tax deductible.

As I said in my post last September, I had a bad fall and cannot manage the heavier tasks now so reluctantly decided to offer the place for sale. It is not really ready as we have not completed developing it, but it is likely to take some time to sell so had to go for it. Consequently it is a long way from being in full production, and will not be for another few years. We have two hectares (5 acres) of olives and the same of nuts and in due course I expect this to be sufficient for a good income. The property is set up for livestock too and this would be additional income. I do not intend to sell the produce in Portugal, although it would be sufficient for us if we did since we also have some pension income. I am intending to market our oil in northern Europe this year with a view to creating a ready market for the incoming owner. It is our own oil, made in a modern mill where you pay for the making and get your own oil back. Many places give you oil (retaining a percentage for their troubles in making it) but it is not your own. I could be here another few years, but if I am I will certainly need help with harvesting.

Please feel free to contact me direct, email address on the website, if you wish to discuss anything in more detail. I appreciate you are not in the market at present, so will not be buying my quinta but when thinking of moving to another country there is always the odd question that cannot be quickly answered, and I might be able to assist on these. I might not, but I might.

[Eric Menchen]

I suspect there are some English language web sites advertising properties to tourists that are overpriced. However, the first I thought of was Portugal Property Guides, which is very much geared to selling to UK citizens. And there I checked the first listing that came up for Porto:
https://www.propertyguides.com/portugal ... e=2&page=1
And then I checked a Portuguese language website that I have perused in the past, and found the exact same apartment, at the same price:
https://casa.sapo.pt/Apartamento-T1-Ven ... html?fpn=1
https://casa.sapo.pt/Apartamento-T1-Ven ... html?fpn=1

Are there better deals to be found by talking to people? Probably, as that immediately cuts out some of what is being paid to real estate agents. I also suspect it might be more dependent on the type of property you are looking for. If you want an apartment in central Lisbon or Porto, I'm more skeptical of finding a hidden deal.

[Christian Gollnick]

Hi Alan, sorry - I absolutely didn't want to insult you. Your case is totally different... English is your first language - of course it makes absolutely sense to post your advertisement in English. I was talking about web-pages that are selling over-priced condos to people that want to participate in the Golden Visa program or to people that have too much money and are too lazy to compare prices. There are several of those pages... Your property is for "normal" people and your web-page is very friendly and nice. I really hope you find somebody to take it over from you. And I hope that this person has a lot of success with the olive oil making. The Portuguese olive oil is so incredibly good... there must be a way to make money from it. But I think it's a matter of scale...
And yes, Eric, real estate agents earn quite a percentage of the deal. I think it is 5 percent. Last year I bought a house for EUR 37,500 - and the real estate agent got EUR 5,000 from the seller...!!! The real estate agent told me that his commission is 5%... with a minimum of EUR 5,000. Not bad for him... poor seller got only 32,500 in the end.
Portugal has a pretty good system of land registry - I have only good experiences with it. It is very easy to transfer land; it seems very safe. But the first real estate deal I would do through a lawyer - he can get you a Portuguese Tax-ID which you need in that country for more or less everything...

And Eric, you are spot-on. It's difficult to find a good deal in Porto or Lisbon these days. The market starts to cool down a little bit (which means the prices are still going higher, but not as quickly as in the last 2 years); it is the AirBnB business that drives the property valuations higher. You get at least 3 times more revenue from AirBnB tourists than from long-term tenants... and suddenly the value of the house is 3 times higher... I believe that we will see a little crisis in the Portugal tourism in a few years... The tourists will find other "in-places" in Eastern Europe or wherever... the government might come down on AirBnB places and allow owners to rent their apartments out only for a certain number of days... and that will impact dramatically the people that have bought inner-city-apartments with mortgages... some will be forced to sell and then we will see some really good deals coming... I safe some money for that time... which I expect will happen in 3 - 5 years...

But in the interior of the country you can find beautiful places at good prices. I was told last year that every day the population of the Douro Valley declines by 14 people... Some old people die; some young people move to Porto, Coimbra or Lisbon... and the people in between go to France, Germany or Switzerland to earn decent salaries. Therefore it's easier to buy a home than to sell it in the interior while the opposite is true for the large cities.

With regards to web-pages... I look normally at the following:
https://casa.sapo.pt/ - which you also used in your example
https://www.remax.pt/
https://www.idealista.pt/
https://www.olx.pt/

Again, Alan, I totally didn't want to insult you. I love the fact that you built up the farm in Portugal and I absolutely get why you plan to move. If I would be 25 years younger I would give the olive business a try... so again, I hope you find a buyer that will take good care of your place!

[Eric Menchen]

Thank you Christian for that reply. I've been looking at apartments for several years now, mostly online. But I have talked to a real estate agent there, and spent a lot of time walking through neighborhoods trying to figure out where I would like to be. I understand that prices are high compared to a home in the countryside, but I've been interested in being in the city. Which website is the best seems to change regularly, as they add "features" which just seem to make some of them less useful. One I used a while back which you didn't list: https://bpiexpressoimobiliario.pt/ But I think lately it hasn't been as good. The biggest thing I find lacking is an exact location. One of the websites sometimes had it, but sometimes would show the listing at the center of Boa Vista. After a while I learned which were the common locations that meant it wasn't really the location, just Porto or a given neighborhood in Porto.

I do wonder if there will be some action taken like in Spain where short-term rentals are limited now in some cities. The biggest issue in the last Porto mayoral election was dealing with tourism. Curbs or limits will have a major effect on the market.

[Alan McDonald]

Hi Alan, sorry - I absolutely didn't want to insult you.

Again, Alan, I totally didn't want to insult you. I love the fact that you built up the farm in Portugal and I absolutely get why you plan to move. If I would be 25 years younger I would give the olive business a try... so again, I hope you find a buyer that will take good care of your place!

Apology accepted without reservation, and no harm done in the long run.

[Roy Hersh]

Such a great thread and helpful to many, including me. I've looked at a lot of real estate over the past half decade and should have pulled the trigger before things exploded. I realized I could not move there while my mom lives out her few remaining years, as she needs lots of care at her age and I couldn't just pick up and move my family and leave her, albeit she lives 1/2 hour away. Anyway, my plan is still to move there and I will have to wait for the softening of the market in Porto to make a purchase now. Like Christian, I do believe the bubble burst is coming and maybe as soon as 2 years, if not burst, at least a considerable softening.

[Bryan H.]

Super interesting and useful thread. I will retire in Portugal, at least part time, for sure. I have a house there now (bought land in 2013 and finished construction on a house in 2016). In 2016-2017, my wife and kids spent most of the summer there (I go when work allows), though last year my oldest took a summer school course to get ahead, so we did not get much of the summer there. But once the kids are out of the house and we can spend serious time there, we are ready.

Seems like most, not surprisingly for this site, are focused on Porto and the surrounding area. Our place is in Alentejo, about an hour south of Lisbon, near the town of Comporta, and more precisely, near the town of Carvalhal. Beach towns, although we are inland by about 5 minutes give or take. Comporta, and now Carvalhal, and now stretching even further south, is an extremely trendy holiday area that we were visiting every year or other year since way before it became trendy. First time we were there was in '98, and it became trendy sometime around 2010 and off-the-charts trendy since maybe 2014 or so. (If I was smarter and had a bit more capital back then, I would have bought every bit of land I could in that area, and I'd not be working now, just drinking port and visiting this site. We have 11.5 hectares, and around '98, I could have had probably 1000 hectares in the same area for what I paid for 11.5 in 2013, but that's an aside...I still have a day job).

But on the topic of real estate in Portugal generally, I can add a few thoughts that are consistent with what others have seen and predict. One thing about where our place is, is that in the off season, it is pretty quiet and lonely. We have a lot of friends, and folks that are family to us, in Lisbon, so we've been looking for an apartment, or building to buy and renovate, there too. (A building where we'd keep an apartment and rent the others.) I echo Roy's and Christian's sentiment--the bubble is going to burst, to some extent, it seems. The past 2-3 years in Lisbon have been insane. Lisbon has been in every travel mag and airline mag in that time, and it has been the hottest city in western europe. (That unfortunately coincided with me looking for apartments or buildings in Lisbon--again, if I'd only been looking five years earlier...) Prices are out of control and there are few good buying opportunities. Everything has been bought up by developers and converted to airbnbs. At least in Lisbon, I can attest to this as i've been there 3 times looking at various apartments or buildings to renovate and pickings are slim.

But, I think the tide is turning. I think the stat I heard is that there are some 400k new beds in Lisbon in airbnb renovations in the last few years. A large percentage of things purchased in the past 3-5 years has been cheaply renovated for airbnb. That is useful for this period of time when Lisbon is the rage, but as Christian noted, it's not too long before Lisbon is in the rear view mirror and some eastern european city is the travel rage. Those 400k new beds will be emptier and prices will drop. Plus, it's creating issues for locals--they can't afford to stay, can't find parking, can't move around, etc. Lisbon is now talking about prohibiting not just short term rentals like Eric mentioned, but even prohibiting renovation for short term rental. I was looking at a building in Lisbon in September, and part of the rules for that parish were that I'd not be able to renovate and rent short term (which was ok for me as I'd prefer long term rentals). In short, the signs seem to point to a pull-back in property value in Lisbon in the next few years. I don't have experience with Porto or the Douro, but it sounds like the trend is similar. Personally, I'm holding off in Lisbon and will watch to see how things play out over the next few years.

Which brings me back to the interior. I echo Christian's sentiments that there are great opportunities in the interior. Even where we are, the price difference interior is significant. After 10 years looking at small houses to renovate in Carvalhal, and never wanting to pay what they were asking to have 0.2 or 0.3 hectares, we bought 11.5 hectares 5 min inland for a fraction of the price of places in Carvalhal or nearby villages closer to the beach. And we are only 7-10 minutes from the beach, door to door. If you are willing to go a bit further inland, you can find quite a bit of land at fair prices, even near us which is an area now overpriced. And although we are not that organized about it yet, we have cork and stone pine trees on the land for harvesting and making a few bucks. I suspect the same is true in the vicinity of the Duoro, as long as you clear of the vineyard area. And if you are willing to be a bit distant from Porto, Lisbon, Sintra or Comporta or other trendy areas, you can find some real bargains for land. Likely to have a ruin on it to renovate, but some very good opportunities.

Related to that, one observation we made over the course of being there for months (my wife and kids) or weeks (me) at a time, rather than a quick vacation week, is that you may not need to be completely in the mix of things. We always thought we wanted a house near the beach in carvalhal (which is not even much of a city, more of a village). But now, with Carvalhal as busy as it is in high season, we are happy to have a piece of land removed from that. If the beaches are jammed in July, we hang at the pool. When you are there for a week, you may eat out most meals--you are on vacation. When you are there for months, you quickly behave like you do at your current home--going to the grocery store, eating in and avoiding the crowds, and eating in even if there are no crowds. When it's no longer a vacation, you live normal. I suspect it would be the same whether the "attraction" is the beach or the Port Lodges. If you live there, you're not going to Graham's or Taylor's every week. So for what it's worth, and this is of course a personal decision, if you are really thinking about retiring there, consider the benefit of space and privacy compared to being closer to the center/action. (As I finish, I hope this does not sound like a lecture. If we had found something suitable, we'd have a house in Carvalhal, probably be happy with it, and not know any better. But looking back, and knowing what I know now, we were lucky to not have found anything at a good QPR in Carvalhal, and taken that first trip with a real estate agent inland. At the time, we were saying "You want us to look where?" But now, I would not change a thing.)

Food for thought.

[Alan McDonald]

BryanH: "When you are there for months, you quickly behave like you do at your current home--going to the grocery store, eating in and avoiding the crowds, and eating in even if there are no crowds. When it's no longer a vacation, you live normal. I suspect it would be the same whether the "attraction" is the beach or the Port Lodges. If you live there, you're not going to Graham's or Taylor's every week. So for what it's worth, and this is of course a personal decision, if you are really thinking about retiring there, consider the benefit of space and privacy compared to being closer to the center/action."

Totally agree with you. Gey few other people think that way though. Most expat retired Brits in Iberia have settled in the tourist areas. When we were young my wife and I used to take occasional days off in the summer (quick look around the livestock early morning and check again when we returned home at night) and always mid week and slightly off-season for tourists. Much more pleasant.

I am not so sure that I agree with you about house prices falling though. Urban prices throughout the country (so a real estate acquaintance told me) fell quite sharply about 10 years ago, and apparently not at the time of the general financial "crash" but more of a lck of demand. Seemingly land, whether agricultural or just general scrubby amenity blocks, did not suffer the same fall. It appears that house prices have more than recovered.

If I was retiring here from another country I would be inclined to begin looking a while before retirement. I can thoroughly recommend the city of Castelo Branco for anyone wanting to live in an urban environment. It is big enough that all facilities are readily to hand. Two hours to the airport at Lisbon by car, and I mean to the airport car parks. Permitted maximium road speeds all the way to within about a quarter mile of the airport terminal is normal. Then a couple of minutes to travel the last few hundred yards. Long stay park about 200 yards from the terminal. If picking up I normally park underground within a few yards of the arrivals lounge, although can be up to 100 yards away if it is really busy. I have not been in any main airport in another country where driving there is so easy, and definitely no hope in a capital city. Rail travel is extremely cheap and about 3 hours to Lisbon. A very pleasant journey following the Tejo for a lot of the way.