Help me identify this Madeira bottle :)

[Alfred H]

Hello everybody.
Im writing this post in hopes someone knows the orgin of this bottle.
I have read here that alot of madeira were bottled in different kinds of bottle shapes, and it was written alot of different things on the bottles.

I bougth this bottle some months ago online, from a woman in Portogal. She had inherited sevrual bottles from her grandparent.
They are no longer with us so they cant tell her anything about the bottles.

She mostly had more traditional looking madeira bottles, of malmsey ect. Like old hand blown Madeira bottles, lots from 1879.
But some bigger magnums bottles. wish i bought one of.
The magnum bottles are newer looking bottles, not typical madeira looking bottles.
And she told me that she had been told that the bottles are from newer age. And that the wine was in cask for many years, and then put into a newtype bottle, and then recorked every 25 year. Last time in 1994.
I can see a little of the cork thru the glass and the cork is pretty much rotten.

I will upload here two pictures of the bottle.

I understand its says what i thing means Terrantez 1800.
My questions is, has anyone else come across bottles like this?, very old wine in these modern bottles?.
Has it maby been made privatly, never to be sold?.
or did some producers age wine this long in cask and then put in modern bottles?.
Looks to me more like its old wine from a cask that was never ment to be sold, therefor put in these types of bottles and easly hand painted the grape and harvest date on it. And then probably given as a gift to her grandparents.

From my experience i see that fake madeiras are not so normal. And this cork is cleary old. And probably from 1994 as she says. And i understand Madeira wasent really populare back then as it is now. So makes it more unlikely that its a fake.

Anyone know anything about this bottle?.
please let me know.

warmest regards,
Norway.

[Andy Velebil]

The paint splash on the bottom generally means the bottle was lying in its side (common on old VP’s but not Madeira that I’m aware of).

I’ll allow others more up on old Madeira than I. But if it’s from a “private cellar” in Portugal and very old I’d be very skeptical right now...

[Alfred H]

oh its just a dust mark at the bottom.
But yeah you can see its an modern times bottle. with the small dots marks ect on the bottom of the bottle. But yeah like it could have been in cask until 1950s... then put into bottle

[Eric Ifune]

Not sure what to make of this. There are currently faked Madeira, more every day with the increase in prices. There are also lots of legitimately old Madeira coming onto market, mainly grower's wines. These were made by a family and kept in the cellar. Possible that the initials on the bottle were those of a grower. Some of these legitimate wines are quite good, but the majority of them are so-so. They weren't great wines to begin with and remain not so great. They weren't great and that's why they've survived. No one wanted to drink them!

[Jim S.]

Those are pretty harsh words. Let me shed a little light...
These bottles are currently being offered on eBay. In fact, there are a few bottles that are coming to the end of the auction in 2 days. They are being offered by a young woman in Madeira who claims she inherited them, and they ship out of Funchal.
If you look at all the items she has listed on eBay, you get the sense that she legitimately inherited, or had access to, a whole load of old stuff, not necessarily valuable, but old stuff that a family held onto. My sense is that this is genuine, and that fraud is not involved. It's not like these are part of the Heavenly Quartet- nobody would fake bottles like this, unless they were 5 or 6 year old kids.
I noticed this seller at the end of August 2019. I successfully bid on a magnum of 1900 Malvasia on Sept. 4th. It had no label and no writing. At the end of November, I opened it in preparation for a 1900 vs. 1954 Madeira tasting planned for Jan. 21.
Aside from appropriate bottle stink, a lovely Malvasia aroma wafted from the bottle- varietally correct. Over a period of weeks, it developed complexity, but never showed the depth and power of a D'Oliveiras, nor the brightness of a Barbeito.
It did have an ethereal quality; a lightness and smooth beauty. I'm not sure that this was a 1900. I would suspect something older, and with more time in glass, than in cask. Out of the 9 bottles in the 1/21/20 tasting, I rated this my #5 wine.
I was so pleased that I bought more of these bottles, but the rest have the white writing on them. I got 1900 and 1910 Malvasia, and a lone bottle of 1909 Malvasia. Then she started offering 1800 and 1830 Boal and Terrantez. I got some of those, in different formats. I haven't tasted any, but I believe that they will be at least very good (perhaps much better), and a relatively inexpensive way to have and taste pre-oidium/pre-phylloxera Madeira.
As mentioned, she has offered the 1879 Castro Malvasia...many times. I always lowball it, so I haven't gotten it- it generally gets picked up from her auctions for $350. Aside from 1 bottle of the 1879, she is also currently offering a bottle of 1830 Terrantez and 1800 Terrantez, both of unknown producer. Those tend to go for anywhere from $450 to $750.
I got a magnum of the 1800 Terrantez for $1395 plus tax, bringing the total to $1,518.81.
Check out her offerings on eBay, and see what you think for yourself. I'm planning to send photos to both Edwin Vos and Mannie Berk, and see if they can offer any insights.
Cheers, Jim

[Andy Velebil]

I'm going to put this out there FWIW. Super old Madeira commands super high prices nowdays. She's selling a fair amount of bottles it seems. Why on earth would you put them on Ebay to get way less than putting into a real wine auction. Answer: you don't want people looking too closely at them or auction houses have already rejected them.

I've looked at some of her lots. Notice it appears the dirt is painted on. See the striations in it. Dirt on a bottle sitting in a cellar doesn't get painted on. It appears that was done on purpose to make them look artificially older. There appears to be two coats of wax, one on top of the other. I'm gonna say there is a good probability these are not what they appear to be.

There is a lot of fake stuff coming out of Portugal.

[Jim S.]

Here's an update- This woman just added two more bottles for sale on eBay: 1800 Terrantez magnum and 1830 Terrantez magnum.
Again, these are coming out of Funchal, not mainland Portugal. There was definitely mud or clay painted on the bottles. That could have been to protect the bottles from light. Two coats of wax might indicate that at some point the owner found the bottles leaking, and then added more wax.
I remember a lot of paranoia surrounding the bottles of Madeira from the OP Brothers. I'm glad I got a bunch of the Teixeira Terrantez that they released through Christie's and other auction houses.
I'm not saying jump in, but from the one bottle I opened, I've been happy to buy more. If you're worried, don't buy it. I'll let you know when I open one of these pre-oidium bottles, and report my findings. And when I get professional input from Edwin or Mannie, I will relay it.

[Andy Velebil]

Here's an update- This woman just added two more bottles for sale on eBay: 1800 Terrantez magnum and 1830 Terrantez magnum.
Again, these are coming out of Funchal, not mainland Portugal. There was definitely mud or clay painted on the bottles. That could have been to protect the bottles from light. Two coats of wax might indicate that at some point the owner found the bottles leaking, and then added more wax.
I remember a lot of paranoia surrounding the bottles of Madeira from the OP Brothers. I'm glad I got a bunch of the Teixeira Terrantez that they released through Christie's and other auction houses.
I'm not saying jump in, but from the one bottle I opened, I've been happy to buy more. If you're worried, don't buy it. I'll let you know when I open one of these pre-oidium bottles, and report my findings. And when I get professional input from Edwin or Mannie, I will relay it.

I'll say this once more. She could be set to make a small fortune off of these in a real auction. Yet she is not doing that. Current price is $31.00 and under 2 days left. For sake of argument, lets say they are real. As Eric points out, some of these were never that good. Time for common sense to rule...

[Glenn E.]

I've looked at some of her lots. Notice it appears the dirt is painted on. See the striations in it. Dirt on a bottle sitting in a cellar doesn't get painted on. It appears that was done on purpose to make them look artificially older. There appears to be two coats of wax, one on top of the other. I'm gonna say there is a good probability these are not what they appear to be.

It doesn't look painted on to me, it looks (partially) wiped off. Those striations could have easily been created by trying to wipe off enough dirt/dust so that the whitewash label is visible.

At least on the half dozen or so that I looked it, that's what it looks like to me.

[Andy Velebil]

I've looked at some of her lots. Notice it appears the dirt is painted on. See the striations in it. Dirt on a bottle sitting in a cellar doesn't get painted on. It appears that was done on purpose to make them look artificially older. There appears to be two coats of wax, one on top of the other. I'm gonna say there is a good probability these are not what they appear to be.

It doesn't look painted on to me, it looks (partially) wiped off. Those striations could have easily been created by trying to wipe off enough dirt/dust so that the whitewash label is visible.

At least on the half dozen or so that I looked it, that's what it looks like to me.

Lets check off the warning signs;
- she "inherited" them.
- Possibly staged dirt
- Double waxed
- Selling on eBay for WAY less than what these would command at auction
- No using a reputable auction house
- No one has seen bottles like that before that we know of

Sure they could be legit, but that's a lot of warning signs.

[Eric Ifune]

I would have to personally handle a bottle to tell if it is old bottled wine. Magnums were very, very rare until Blandy's started up again with the 1920 Boal. That was Chris Blandy's doing.

[Jim S.]

If you look at Alfred’s first two posts, you’ll see that he feels this is a modern bottling of an old Madeira. The bottles are of all different shapes and sizes. It seems that whoever bottled it was using whatever bottles they could get their hands on. eBay might be the easiest or most familiar sales format for a young person to access.
I really don’t believe these are fakes. On the other hand, it is likely that the Madeira for sale is not on the same level as a 1795 Terrantez. At the going eBay rate, I’m willing to take the risk. I was happy with the quality of the 1900 Malvasia. It was not the finest 1900 Malvasia, but there was something special about it. The bottle was certainly worth the price of admission.

[Andreas Platt]

It is basically VERRRY easy:

- those who think (I was tempted to write "believe") these bottles (I was tempeted to write "wines") are legit should bid heavily on those - you will not ever have the opportunity again to buy THIS bottle of wine again, these are UNIQUES!!!

- for those, who think that these bottles are suspicious, should stay far awax, which they'll do, anyways.

I can only say that there is no reason for me to think these bottles are "demandable" for me, not even for a small price tag.

As others have said use your experience and for those with lacking experience use your common sense...

[Jim S.]

Another update- I sent Mannie Berk a photo of the 1800 Terrantez magnum. He was very skeptical about the bottles being offered.

[Alfred H]

any more updates?,
anyone been in contact with the seller?. she must know something about the history of the bottles. if we get her grandparents name then it migth be easier getting to know where they got the bottles from?.
i only talked to her once. she just told me that she inhertied them, and know very little about wine. and after selling a few on ebay for close to nothing people starting bidding more and more. and now she sell for hunders of euros. She sell the in parts becouse she gains more followers on ebay by waiting.

any one elselse tasted some of her bottles?

[Alfred H]

but yeah, without being an expert in anyway i dont think these are fake.
like you can tell the cork is rotten and old thru the glass. so if they were fake it must have been faked a long time ago. Madeiras hasent been that collecteble for that long. only last few years. And if you were faking bottles wouldent you put more effort into it?, like types of bottles, and the writing on the bottles. everyone knows this is not how its usually written on famous madeira bottles. Its like hand drawn and the grape names are shortened.
if i was faking bottles i wouldt have done a much better job atleast haha.

Im guessing like the seller has said. they have been in cask for many years, and then later put in bottles. And probably never ment to be sold profesionally. but wine made for the owners own consumption. but for some reason left in barreles for a very long time, and then someoneo found them and decided to bottle them, and just used whatever types of bottles they could find.
her grandparents were not wine makers, so it must have been giving as a gift to them, or theyv bougth them somewere.
anyone think this sound reasonable?

[Andreas Platt]

No

[Jim S.]

Personally, I believe these are not fakes, but I can’t be sure what they are. I don’t think they would have been gifts. When I was in Madeira, I heard many tales of grower Madeira being given as payment, and it could be that’s how it got into this woman’s family. Ultimately, it’s about what’s in the bottle. So, two Latin sayings come to mind-
Caveat emptor and De gustibus non est disputandem.
Again, my mag of 1900 Malvasia was definitely a beautiful Malvasia, just not the powerhouse I would expect from a Madeira from that vintage. To really know what we’re talking about, one of us needs to pop one of these “19th century” bottles. Only whoever does that can talk from a position of true knowledge.

[Andy Velebil]

As the old saying goes; You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

You've got a number of experts on Madeira here in this forum and even Manny B. has given his thoughts. Everyone is saying the same thing. Perhaps listen to those folks.

[Jim S.]

Here's another update- I got an email response from Edwin Vos, the International Head of Wine for Christie's. The following is an exact quote from his personal email to me:

"I do recognize this bottle. Think Chris send it to me. I have refused it for sale as it lacked info and just wasn’t the kind of Madeira we want to offer.

Good to have your note on the taste of one of these. Do you know who recorked this? "

All right folks, that's all I have to offer, until I open a bottle.