Hello Everyone.
I am new to this site, having found it while searching for notes on old madeira (my first and foremost wine love, and Portugal/Madeira being one of my travel passions).
I am curious about a thread I saw elsewhere, about port on auction, but didn't want to hijack that particular thread. Is it really true that it tends to hammer down at the low end of the estimate scale? I would have really thought the opposite, save for the bottles with seepage or more "ordinary" bottles, because port has always seemed the fortified wine of choice in modern times. By way of background, I always found myself to be a bit of isolated in my love of madeira, such that I could find an occasional specialty wine store where the people "got it" but would say that nobody wants madeira so they don't really carry any but wouldn't I like some vintage port. (Sadly, it would appear I have taken this state of affairs for granted for too long, and now what was once reasonably priced 8 years ago - considering age - seems steep indeed, if I can even find it). It got to the point I figured I may as well wait and go to the island again.
Getting back to my port auction question, while port isn't my favorite I do appreciate a fine port and one or two ports did catch my eye; hence I wonder really what tends to happen at these auctions where it's pages and pages and pages of old Bordeaux, Burgundy etc. and about 3 or 4 pages of port. Last fall I was at an auction and it took an excrutiating long time to get my paddle. By the time I got it the various port lots were over with, so I have no sense of the port auction market. (And there wasn't any madeira on offer.) C'est la vie (but hey, I did manage to successfully bid on other stuff and it was great to get practice bidding).
Heather
Port at auction
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
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Heather Hathwell
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:51 pm
- Location: Glendale, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Hi Heather,
I'm not sure where you're based, but I would guess from your phrasing that you are based in the US. Since the vast majority of my auction experience is in the UK, I may not be able to give you comments that are as directly relevant as others might be able to.
However, in my experience, port and madeira auction buyers are generally a pretty well researched bunch of people. They will prepare for an auction by using something like wine-searcher.com to find out the lowest retail price for a particular port or madeira that they want to buy, deduct from that an appropriate discount for the risk of buying at auction (in my case, I usually look for a discount of 30-50% for most lots I target), then knock off the auction house's buyers premium and any sales taxes.
Once I have prepared like this, that sets the maximum price that I am prepared to pay for a particular lot. Only then will I look at the estimates. In some cases my maximum offer will be above the estimate, most of the time below low estimate.
I have found that estimates for the same wine being sold at roughly the same time vary wildly between auction houses and even within the same sale. Some of the time these estimates seem to have been set because they are based on a perception or a requirement from the seller to achieve a certain minimum price. One particular notable example of this is an auction that I attended where single bottle lots of the Noval Nacional 1997 and the regular Noval 1997 were on offer. The estimates for these were identical. The Navional sold at low estimate and the Noval did not sell. When we commented to the auctioneer that the estimate was ridiculous he was only able to tell us that the seller had insisted that since both ports had been awarded 100 Parker Points the seller was insisting that they should be sold for the same price. The Noval sold at a later auction for roughly 1/4 of the original low estimate.
I think that in essence, my answer to your question is "It doesn't matter what the estimates are as knowing port buyers will only offer realistic prices anyway."
Alex
I'm not sure where you're based, but I would guess from your phrasing that you are based in the US. Since the vast majority of my auction experience is in the UK, I may not be able to give you comments that are as directly relevant as others might be able to.
However, in my experience, port and madeira auction buyers are generally a pretty well researched bunch of people. They will prepare for an auction by using something like wine-searcher.com to find out the lowest retail price for a particular port or madeira that they want to buy, deduct from that an appropriate discount for the risk of buying at auction (in my case, I usually look for a discount of 30-50% for most lots I target), then knock off the auction house's buyers premium and any sales taxes.
Once I have prepared like this, that sets the maximum price that I am prepared to pay for a particular lot. Only then will I look at the estimates. In some cases my maximum offer will be above the estimate, most of the time below low estimate.
I have found that estimates for the same wine being sold at roughly the same time vary wildly between auction houses and even within the same sale. Some of the time these estimates seem to have been set because they are based on a perception or a requirement from the seller to achieve a certain minimum price. One particular notable example of this is an auction that I attended where single bottle lots of the Noval Nacional 1997 and the regular Noval 1997 were on offer. The estimates for these were identical. The Navional sold at low estimate and the Noval did not sell. When we commented to the auctioneer that the estimate was ridiculous he was only able to tell us that the seller had insisted that since both ports had been awarded 100 Parker Points the seller was insisting that they should be sold for the same price. The Noval sold at a later auction for roughly 1/4 of the original low estimate.
I think that in essence, my answer to your question is "It doesn't matter what the estimates are as knowing port buyers will only offer realistic prices anyway."
Alex
I suspect that your comment relates to a thread or two that I started. My experience is limited but uniform. All these comments relate to Acker Merrall Condit auctions. In early 2006, I attended an auction for the sole purpose of bidding on a lot of 6 bottles of 1951 Offley Colheita port, my birth year. I got the lot at the opening bid price and I noticed that other Port lots were sold at the opening bid. People seem to want DRC, Lafitte, Screaming Eagle and that kind of stuff.
I have since bid on a case of 1995 Quinta de Vargellas and two bottles of 1996 Quinta do Noval Nacional. In both cases, I was the successful bidder at the opening bid. I lost out on a lot of 1994 Fonseca when someone else got in their bid at the opening price before I got a chance to bid. Port is not very popular in the US and thus seems to draw little interest at auction. I will be going to the Sotheby's auction this Friday to bid on a port lot and we'll see what happens. My biggest problem is that a case of Port goes a very long way and I won't bid unless I have someone to share it with.
I have since bid on a case of 1995 Quinta de Vargellas and two bottles of 1996 Quinta do Noval Nacional. In both cases, I was the successful bidder at the opening bid. I lost out on a lot of 1994 Fonseca when someone else got in their bid at the opening price before I got a chance to bid. Port is not very popular in the US and thus seems to draw little interest at auction. I will be going to the Sotheby's auction this Friday to bid on a port lot and we'll see what happens. My biggest problem is that a case of Port goes a very long way and I won't bid unless I have someone to share it with.
Thanks Roy
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Heather Hathwell
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:51 pm
- Location: Glendale, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Thank you Alex and Jay.
Actually I am in Los Angeles. (Not sure how to get my location showing). Anyway, yes Jay this was prompted by your initial thread. Having done vast quantities of research along the lines of what Alex outlined (that's also how I stumbled across this site - very nice benefit to all this even if I don't prevail at auction), it seemed that something that should be highly priced was at a low estimate (even at the higher end of the estimate) and even in great condition from a top source and certain others estimated higher than what is already available open market.
Btw Jay, let me know how yours goes and perhaps some of us can help take some extra bottles of your hands. I'll report back on mind in say a week's time.
Thanks so much.
Actually I am in Los Angeles. (Not sure how to get my location showing). Anyway, yes Jay this was prompted by your initial thread. Having done vast quantities of research along the lines of what Alex outlined (that's also how I stumbled across this site - very nice benefit to all this even if I don't prevail at auction), it seemed that something that should be highly priced was at a low estimate (even at the higher end of the estimate) and even in great condition from a top source and certain others estimated higher than what is already available open market.
Btw Jay, let me know how yours goes and perhaps some of us can help take some extra bottles of your hands. I'll report back on mind in say a week's time.
Thanks so much.
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Santo Roman
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:17 am
- Location: Kirkland, Washington, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Heather,
Im an auction specialist at a wine auction house, this is to say that I spend a lot of my day tracking wine prices like they are the stock market and assessing wines for our upcoming sales. Like the others have said look for a few things: buyers premium that will range from 17% to 21%. This will be tacked on to the hammer prices. Sales tax you need not worry since your in CA and the auction houses are in NY unless your bidding at a Zachy's LA or Christie's sale.
Shipping of the wine will have to be thought of also. Take that into consideration.
I'll tell you like I tell all my clients. The best way to bid is to put the max amount of money you are willing to spend and your bid and walk away. Way to many people get caught up with the paddle problem and start raising their paddle when they are loosing and by the time the hammer is hit they have paid way too much for the wine. Most of the time after all is said and done your can go out and by it for retail at the same price, so do your homework.
There is less of a demand for port in the US but Madeira is creeping up there! I priced out some older Madeira 2 auctions ago that went for 4 times the estimate. Crazy.
Since I can't bid on any of the wines through my auction house (legal thing) I tend to buy from one house as the specialist they have buy from me.
Hope this clears the air for you. If you have any questions PM me and I'll get back to you.
Santo
Im an auction specialist at a wine auction house, this is to say that I spend a lot of my day tracking wine prices like they are the stock market and assessing wines for our upcoming sales. Like the others have said look for a few things: buyers premium that will range from 17% to 21%. This will be tacked on to the hammer prices. Sales tax you need not worry since your in CA and the auction houses are in NY unless your bidding at a Zachy's LA or Christie's sale.
Shipping of the wine will have to be thought of also. Take that into consideration.
I'll tell you like I tell all my clients. The best way to bid is to put the max amount of money you are willing to spend and your bid and walk away. Way to many people get caught up with the paddle problem and start raising their paddle when they are loosing and by the time the hammer is hit they have paid way too much for the wine. Most of the time after all is said and done your can go out and by it for retail at the same price, so do your homework.
There is less of a demand for port in the US but Madeira is creeping up there! I priced out some older Madeira 2 auctions ago that went for 4 times the estimate. Crazy.
Since I can't bid on any of the wines through my auction house (legal thing) I tend to buy from one house as the specialist they have buy from me.
Hope this clears the air for you. If you have any questions PM me and I'll get back to you.
Santo