Your favorite 2nd Tier Port House?

[Mike J. W.]

When it comes to Vintage Port, do you have a 2nd Tier port label that is one of your overall favorites? For me, it's Offley Boa Vista. The first one I had was at a wine tasting that John M hosted over a year ago. It was an '85 OBV VP and it was my WOTN. I've had a few other vintages since then ('00 and '03 VP and an '83 LBV) and they were very good. What's even better is the low prices.

What's yours and how did it come to be one of your favorites?

[Glenn E.]

Gould Campbell. Easy choice for me, as I often refer to it as "Graham's Junior." That's not entirely accurate, though... Gould Campbell may be a 2nd Tier label/brand, but its Ports easily compete with the 1st Tier. Which makes it great for us because we end up getting top-tier Port for second-tier prices!

[Frederick Blais]

Offley was also the first VP I bought, second VP I tasted. I bought a lot of 82, 83, 87 and always loved them.

Very true, Gould Campbell delivers great value, 77, 80,83 were a great run for that house, loved the 2000 very much as well.

I think Andresen and Poças are very underrated as well, maybe I'd got for Poças, I really had nice time with the 70,91,97 and 2000. Recently they also did step it up!

[Andy Velebil]

Quarles Harris. Sadly, it's not being produced at the moment.

[Mike J. W.]

Gould Campbell is a good choice. The only problem is that I have had many of them corked. When they're good though, they can be very good.

I own a few Pocas VP ('00 & '09), but I haven't tried them yet. Giving them a little bit more time. I do like their Colheitas very much though.

I have never had a Quarles Harris. I've been keeping my eye out for a '77 or '85 on the auction sites. I haven't bid on any for the price point that I want to pay. I'll keep looking.

[Eric Menchen]

So what are the tiers? I consider the first tier to be Taylor, Fonseca, Noval, Graham, Dow, maybe Warre.
Given those, Quinta do Vesuvio.
And maybe in the 2nd or 3rd tier, Smith Woodhouse.

[Mike J. W.]

In my mind, Quinta do Vesuvio belongs in the first tier. Although relatively new (1989, I don't count the one release from the 19th century), they have been consistently good and well regarded. I also agree that Warre is in the first tier.

[Thomas V]

You can only pick 1? That is rough.

We also need to agree on which houses are in which tiers? That is probably the toughest job

Off the top of my head.

Tier 1: Quinta do Noval, Fonseca, Graham's, Dow's, Taylor's, Warre's, Quinta do Vesuvio (some might disagree with this one)

Tier 2: Gould Campbell, Smith Woodhouse, Sandeman, Ferreira, Cockburn's, Niepoort, Quarles Harris, Ramos Pinto

Tier 3: Churchill's, Delaforce, Offley, Quinta do Portal, Quevedo, Quinta da Romaneira, Quinta Vale de Maria, Veira de Sousa, Alves de Sousa

I might be inclined to move Romaneira up to tier 2. The have vastly improved over the last 5 years.

As for your question I am going to rule out discontinued brands out to make my life easier. I would then have to go with either Niepoort or Sandeman. I'd chose Sandeman. They have really sublime older VPs and continue to make great young ports. Should really drink more Sandeman. I have had lots of Niepoort and they are excellent wines too.

[Moses Botbol]

Ferreira, Gould Campbell, or Smith Woodhouse, are the first that come to mind.

[Eric Menchen]

I love Vesuvio, but I wouldn't put it in the first tier, for two reasons. First, they haven't been around that long as an independent label. How is that 1970? Second, they release a Port just about every year, and while they are all decent, some of them are not the standouts that the top tier produce by limiting their releases to 3 (or maybe 4) per decade. That's my opinion.

[Andy Velebil]

I love Vesuvio, but I wouldn't put it in the first tier, for two reasons. First, they haven't been around that long as an independent label. How is that 1970? Second, they release a Port just about every year, and while they are all decent, some of them are not the standouts that the top tier produce by limiting their releases to 3 (or maybe 4) per decade. That's my opinion.

By your definition that means Noval is not a 1st tier producer either

And Vesuvio has been around for a very long time. Their older ones, while very very hard to find, can be outstanding.

[Will W.]

In terms of producers which have been bottling VPs for ages and are still at it: Burmester and Ramos Pinto.

[Eric Ifune]

What tier would Crasto or Vale Meao belong to?
These are two of my favorites.

[Mike J. W.]

I look at VP as 1st tier and then everything else, but certainly there could be a 2nd, 3rd and possibly fourth tier for VP. That could make for some fun discussions, but I don't know if I know all of the producers well enough to stratify them to those levels.

[John M.]

Tier 2: Gould Campbell, Smith Woodhouse, Sandeman, Ferreira, Cockburn's, Niepoort, Quarles Harris, Ramos Pinto

This is an All-Star line-up to me. Love GC & SW and Ferreira has some amazing subtle VPs and Ramos seems to be very good. Niepoort is the most interesting science experiment with all the different things they make (too bad about the bad corks from a generation ago). The others I've limited experience with. Mainly, I drink a lot of this group because they are awfully good to great for a lot less the Tier 1....to the point where it doesn't feel like I've traded down in quality.

[Eric Menchen]

By your definition that means Noval is not a 1st tier producer either
And Vesuvio has been around for a very long time. Their older ones, while very very hard to find, can be outstanding.

Yeah, I thought about Noval. They don't release as often as Vesuvio, but more than the other names I mentioned in the first tier. And they had a rough spot there for a while too. And yes, Vesuviou has been around for a very long time, but I thought we could agree that those rare "very very hard to find" bottlings don't qualify to make a top tier producer. Maybe for other reasons they now qualify, but you can't say they were a top tier producer in the 1970s and 1980s if you couldn't readily buy their wine.

[Thomas V]

By your definition that means Noval is not a 1st tier producer either
And Vesuvio has been around for a very long time. Their older ones, while very very hard to find, can be outstanding.

Yeah, I thought about Noval. They don't release as often as Vesuvio, but more than the other names I mentioned in the first tier.

I know you know. But Noval has released a VP in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 & 2018. That is 8 consecutive years. 1 more year than Vesuvio who skipped 2014. But if you count from 1990 Vesuvio is ahead with around 10 more vintages declared.

Fun discussion. Would be even better if we could share it over a bottle of port.

[Glenn E.]

Caveat: this is all just my opinion! It's the way that I look at the various companies. There's no single, accurate definition of what "1st Tier" and "2nd Tier" and "3rd Tier" means when you're talking about Port producers.

For me, "2nd Tier" has to be a combination of the use of the brand name and the quality of the Port. Factoring in the use of the brand name is especially necessary for me for the companies that own more than one brand, e.g. SFE, TFP, Sogevinus, and Sogrape.

The Symingtons treat Graham and arguably Dow better than their other brands, though in this case I feel that it's more a case of "first among equals" with Warre and Cockburn. Cockburn is getting the benefit of the doubt from me because of its history, which is long and storied. Gould Campbell, Smith Woodhouse, Quarles Harris, Martinez, Quinta de Roriz, and even Quinta do Vesuvio don't receive the product placement from SFE that the "big 4" receive. GC and QH are nominally dead brands now anyway, though perhaps "on hiatus" might be a better description. Quinta de Roriz is, I believe, only making dry wine now and no longer making Port.

The Fladgate Partnership's stable includes Taylor, Fonseca, Croft, and Krohn. The first two are easily "1st Tier" and for the same reason that I give Cockburn the benefit of the doubt, I do the same for Croft. Krohn (formerly independent as Wiese & Krohn) is clearly 2nd tier from TFP's perspective, as they were best known for their tawny Ports but the old ones for which they were famous are now released under the Taylor brand name and Krohn is only used for basic Ports, young Colheitas, a 10YO Tawny, LBV, and VP. I.e. it has been stripped of its heritage, so is at best a "2nd Tier" brand and could probably be considered "3rd Tier" given what TFP has done to it.

Realistically, Kopke is the only true "1st Tier" brand that Sogevinus owns. Barros, Burmester, and Calem simply aren't known well enough worldwide to be considered true "1st Tier" brands to me, despite all making superb Port. Porto Rocha is a clear "2nd Tier" brand because it is really only used in the US and a couple of other countries.

Similarly, Sandeman is the only true "1st Tier" Port brand that Sogrape owns. Ferreira and Offley don't have the worldwide renown of Sandeman. Note that Sogrape is huge - they have dozens of other brands across the wine and liquor world including a few that people might recognize such as Constantino (now making only brandy), Casa Ferreirinha (now making primarily Douro wines), and one that might trick you - Quinta dos Carvalhais. That's perilously close to Quinta das Carvalhas, which is the Real Companhia Velha property across the Douro from Pinhão. Think "the round house".

Once you leave the conglomerates, it becomes a little more balanced. To me, Quinta do Noval is clearly "1st Tier" because they not only make superb Port, but they have worldwide name recognition. Niepoort's worldwide name recognition just isn't on the same level as Noval's - it is well known among people like us, but much less so among average consumers - so I might slot Niepoort in between "1st Tier" and "2nd Tier". Ramos Pinto gets a big boost due to the fact that it's practically synonymous with Port in Brazil, so while it might be considered "2nd Tier" in the US it definitely has the worldwide presence to be considered "1st Tier". 200 million people can't be wrong!

I've probably forgotten someone important as I'm doing this off the top of my head, but after the above you're mostly looking at what I would call "2nd Tier" brands. Individual producers just don't have the reach to compete head-to-head with any of the above, even though they often produce as good or better Port.

A ranking based purely on quality of product would be significantly different! Lots of small producers would jump to "1st Tier" because their quality is stellar even if you might have to go to Portugal to try them. You'd probably even need to have separate rankings for "VP" and "Tawny" producers since it seems that most producers struggle to be "top tier" with both. (That "does both well" list might be limited to Niepoort and Noval for me.)

[Eric Ifune]

Glenn, I'd disagree with you on Ferreira not being top tier for Sogrape. Perhaps not as famous as Sandeman, it's history matches any house anywhere. I think it only gets overlooked because of it's elegant style, but ages nearly as well as anyone.

[Frederick Blais]

For me Niepoort and Noval are in the same boat. They have amazing old Ports, but both had a bad stretch during the 80's-90's but are coming back strong since 2000 for Niepoort and 1994 for Noval. We'll see in a few years where they belong again.

I don't think Niepoort is only a niche producer anymore. Since the release of Dialogo-Drink Me in the US I think- the company simply keeps getting more and more followers for table wines and for Ports. I'd say the name Niepoort is more notorious to the average consumer nowadays than Noval, but the fame of the Nacional amongs passionnates overshadows the quality and fame of Niepoort's best vintages.

Kopke is Tier 1 for Colheita, but not for Vintage.